By all criteria, this a concentration camp. Not “concentration camp” as rhetorical inflation, or emotionally manipulative shorthand, or edgy metaphor—but as in: literally.
As in: detention without trial, state control, inhumane living conditions, forced labor, dehumanization, brutal violence, isolation from accountability, psychological torture, and—by every available logical extension—murder.
That last one we can’t yet verify in the strict evidentiary sense, but the circumstances suggest it like smoke suggests fire, and they are already trying to hide their actions and deny what is occurring.
America has been doing this for decades. Look at Guantanamo Bay. We used the excuse of terrorism then and now we’re using the excuse of boarder security. As long as people can be controlled by their greed
ofor fear then this will continue to happen.Edit: autocorrect…
Also look at FDRs concentration camps for Japanese Americans. This shit is a time honored tradition in this country.
I don’t want to minimize the suffering of Japanese Americans in the camps in any way, but from the history I’ve read they seem to be a few steps up from whatever the hell is going on at CECOT.
I’m not trying to compare them. We have no idea what’s going on at CEDOT. It could very well be worse, that’s true. My point is FDRs camps were, by definition, concentration camps. This country has a long history of throwing people into concentration camps.
From all the reporting I’ve read CECOT is significantly worse than the Japanese internment camps. What America did to Japanese Americans was cruel and unjust, and I wouldn’t say conditions in the camps were good, but CECOT seems to be on a whole other level. Prisoners are confined in crowded bunk rooms, outside time is limited to one hour per day, and physical violence from the other prisoners and the guards seems to be the rule rather than the exception.
The concentration camps for Japanese Americans were concentration camps in the 19th century sense of the word - simply a place to hold a group of civilians during a conflict. CECOT is a concentration camp in the Nazi sense of the word - an extermination camp.
I believe adult men could also escape internment by volunteering for the military.
Fucked, but not genocidal.
greed
fear
And especially disgust. They weaponize it so much.
Isn’t the name of the camp “terrorism confinement” something?
We were always the first Nazis that won.
More like winners who later decided their defeated enemies were cool. 😅
America was absolutely a part of the formulation of the nazis. Look up Henry Ford. His plagiarized propaganda was attributed as a source used in the formulation of the final solution. Fuck even Thomas Edison was trying to talk him down. Look at the america first party. Over 20 congressional representatives were in active communication and even received funding from Nazis. Some had received pre written speeches that they actually used.
If anyone “won” anything, it would be the Nazis, not Americans. Because here we are…
Plagiarising propaganda by one president or members of some organization receiving funding from Nazis doesn’t make the nation Nazi. That’s quite the stretch.
Countless fringe political groups organizing on Telegram to adopt fascist views & looks, holding public demonstrations wearing swastikas downtown, targeting minority groups, and stripping people of their power and their history from the top down is more like it. Because back in the day none of that shit would fly especially around people who fought in the war, but it does now.
If anyone “won” anything, it would be the Nazis
I think you mean US enemies? Because these views were cultivated by them way after the fact.
Because back in the day none of that shit would fly especially around people who fought in the war, but it does now.
I think that we’d be better off if the dads, uncles, and grandpas who came back and refused to talk about their war experiences had made it clearer to the next generation exactly how horrible it was. It didn’t fly with them because they saw what it brought. It flies with younger people because we were sheltered from the true horrors of the war.
I think a trip to the Holocaust Museum should be required for all high school seniors. If it isn’t closed by the clown show currently running the country, at least.
If you are arguing that the 30-40s US was unlike and unattributed for the Third Reich, then you are obviously correct, but I think you forget that the Nazis existed before Hitler. In the light of what they would become, they were more or less akin to telemarketers. And would THAT fly in the US?
It would
It did
And it always has
Third Reich, then you are obviously correct, but I think you forget that the Nazis existed before Hitler.
Oh, I’m not forgetting, I actually am currently ignorant of that. 😅 I’ll have to revisit this conversation when I’m a bit more read on the topic because I see what you mean now a bit better.
The first AMERICAN concentration camp is being constructed as we speak. Soon we won’t need Cecot.
Trump has signed an executive order to build a 30,000 bed detention facility in Guantanamo Bay, and a $249 million contract has already been awarded. It is due to be complete in 2030, but it will open in stages.
For context, the average maximum security prison in America is about 800-1200 people. The largest, in Angola, LA, is about 8300. That means this new detention facility will be almost 4 times larger than our current largest prison, which is already several times larger than average.
Its also going to be on a foreign island, surrounded by a (supposedly) hostile foreign nation, far from the prying eyes of the media or the courts.
We’ve seen Cecot, with its giant cells packed with 80 prisoners. We’ve also seen their method of frog-marching their prisoners.
Compare that with Russia’s infamous Black Dolphin Prison where prisoners live this way for the rest of their lives:
they are forced to stand and forbidden from resting or sitting on their bunks from the time they awake until bedtime (roughly 16 hours).
They are also moved about in a similar way as Cecot:
Black Dolphin prison officers have a unique form of escorting inmates: prisoners are kept bent over at the waist while a guard holds his handcuffed hands behind his back, higher than his hips. This escort control tactic allows for maximum control while depriving him of a view of his immediate surroundings (preventing him from escaping and/or attacking prison staff)
The MAGA Nazis are very familiar both of these notorious prisons, and it is likely they will be the model for the the new Guantanamo Bay facility.
So who do they intend on putting in there? He is making it crystal clear that whoever is destined for Camp Gitmo will NOT be receiving trials, or anything resembling Due Process.
Our first AMERICAN concentration camp is being constructed as we speak, Google it.
“No, no, we haven’t actually seen any evidence of murder, we’re just reporting it.”
My recommendation. Operation El Salvadorian Freedom after this orange turd is gone
America doesn’t exactly have a great track record when overthrowing central american governments…
Yeah can we not do that anymore. The fuck was/is wrong with these ppl? Let’s support actual democracy in those countries instead.
What, so bomb the fuck out of a bunch of civilians, spend a few hundred billion, and go home a couple years later leaving a power vacuum and acting confused about why you went there in the first place?
Are they already building ovens?
This might be a pile of bodies.
https://uk.news.yahoo.com/people-spot-mystery-mound-world-200306315.html
Would you let your daughter date one of these men?
Fascist, racist ICE agents illegally abducting people and sending them to concentration camps? Hell no I wouldn’t allow her to date one of them.
I know I wouldn’t let her date You.
I didn’t know the criteria for not being placed in a concentration camp was whether or not I’d approve of them dating my hypothetical daughter.
Sorry mate, that rules you out - good luck at CECOT.
Yes because I would raise my daughter to get to know someone before dating them and have a good sense of character, and not assume someone was evil because they were in a prison. It’s also been shown that innocent people have been sent there.
lol find a better picture, The guys in this picture that you put up are all criminals
How do you know that with certainty if they never had a trial or any kind of criminal proceedings?
These are not the people in the picture that were sent over by The Trump administration. These fully tattooed from head to toe with gang signs on them are all criminals that deserve to be there. If you are not from El Salvador or live there or been there Your opinion doesn’t matter.
Gotcha, if that’s true the article author is being a bit misleading then… do you happen to have a link to anything else I could read to learn more? I’m from Scotland and I don’t expect my views to matter, I wasn’t actually sharing an opinion, just asking a question 😅 If you’re from the area I’m sure you know a lot more about it than me!
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Could you explain to me how MS-13 established itself in El Salvador?
Only suspected to be. Bukele himself concedes a roughly 20% error rate and it’s probably much worse than that.
“Oh but we used to live in fear of gangs!” You still do, you just traded one gang for a different, state-sanctioned one.
Hey guys we found the warden here.
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the right has gotten very good at public opinion chess. they keep putting us in checkmate situations where we have to defend the villains in order to oppose their authoritarian methods. most leftists and liberals fall for it - hook, line, and sinker.
i think it’s time we stopped playing these games, flipped the table, and put a knife to their throats.
you have a point. we can’t defend our institutions by making heroes out of what the public sees as villains. we can, however, say “yeah, most of these guys probably are violent criminals but that doesn’t invalidate the rule of law and the right of due process”. the former will not help change public opinion, but the latter might.
but i’m a bit of a paradox. i happen to agree with trump’s methods. i still see him as a dangerous narcissist, but if i could take that same power and use it to deport evangelicals, capitalist sociopaths, and conservatives, i absolutely would.
it’s a war. we just have to win it. by any means necessary.
NAH bro free the guys!
But seriously these people are idiotic to use pictures like this where these guys are literal scumbags. If you have a chance watch La Vida Loca documentary on YouTube. They even killed the director that they allowed to film them at the end
not gonna do that. i don’t need to be convinced that cartels and gangs are dangerous and brutal. i wasn’t born yesterday.
my question to you is where do you draw the line at who gets due process and who doesn’t?
This is not about due process this is about the picture you guys are using to try to prove your Point. Not one person in El Salvador would Agree to what you are trying to prove by using this picture. Also a majority of these guys in this jail already went through the court process. Look it up, But you’re probably not gonna do that. A lot of of the people in this new jail were already convicted criminals that were In old overcrowded jails that were ran by the gangs. There’s videos of them partying with hookers in the jails Before this one was built. El Salvador didn’t just build a new jail and decide to go find a bunch of people on the street and put them in there.
Also the documentary isn’t for you to pick and choose sides it’s actually a really good documentary
i never made any assertions about the documentary. i just don’t want to watch it.
the way you keep saying ‘you guys’ is concerning though. are you a conservative?
No I’m an independent voter that has voted Democrat going back to Obama when I was first able to vote, Until this last election
I am quite surprised on the lack of knowledge about El Salvador. I would expect this from other platforms, but not here.
Please get informed before comparing this system to a concentration camp. Now if the administration of the United States wants to use El Salvador’s system to push their agenda, you should continue to blame the United States and not El Salvador.
Before Bukele, El Salvador had a level of corruption and violence completely out of proportion. There were so many different approaches made to eradicate the complex issue and none of them worked. If you have a group of people that are terrorizing the population, you cannot be diplomatic if the approach. Bukele turned his country around overnight.
They are concentration camps whether you agree with them or not. Sounds like you are into them though so that’s weird.
Ok, so what do you think is the solution to the problem that El Salvador was facing?
Let’s say what they did was the only way. Why are our immigrants and others now being sent to forever prison there without due process? These are two separate issues.
You are spot on! Why are people being sent to a prison outside of the country without any trial or due process? That is to say that the United States and its administration is at fault not El Salvador.
How is the Salvador, 1/4 the size of South Carolina, supposed to stand up to a command from the United States? Think about that. You have to realize how much influence and power the United States has had over the rest of the continent, they have played this game for decades.
I am sure if the United States says we need them back, El Salvador will release them no questions asked. We cannot sit here and blame the people on the other side when the ones in the same turf are calling the shots.
From Wikipedia:
“A concentration camp is a prison or other facility used for the internment of political prisoners or politically targeted demographics, such as members of national or minority ethnic groups, on the grounds of state security, or for exploitation or punishment.”
I’d say it tracks.
It is not new though, it started with Guantanamo concentration camp for Taliban fighters.
It is not new though, it started with Guantanamo concentration camp for Taliban fighters.
It is not new though, it started with 10 concentrations camps during World War 2 for Japanese Americans.
It is not new though, it started with Guantanamo concentration camp for Taliban fighters.
It is not new though, it started with 10 concentrations camps during World War 2 for Japanese Americans.
It is not new though, it started with concentration camps for the extermination and removal of the Native Americans
Hey! You skipped the civil war concentration camps on both sides, how dare you.
I’ve always thought it was hypocritical of Americans to be calling Nazis the worst. We literally enslaved a group of people for hundreds of years, bred and slaughtered them at our whim. Had concentration camps, and more. We’re not better, and probably worse. We just had good propaganda.
Eh, I wouldn’t say Americans reached the level of industrialized genocide Nazi Germany achieved but we definitely had and still have plenty of blood on our hands.
I’m not sure I’d agree, though maybe you’re correct because it wasn’t industrial. We put bounties on bison skulls though to encourage them being slaughtered because we new native populations relied on them, for example. It was brutal and systematic. Sure, we didn’t use industrial means to actually kill them, but I don’t think that makes it better or worse, only different.
TIL
In Die Hard, when Hans is describing Takagi, he says “interned at Manzanar 1942-43”. 9 year old imsufferableninja thought he was talking about an internship at a prestigious company called Manzanar. 25 year old imsufferableninja finally figured it out. They did not teach about the US’s concentration camps at my schools, for some reason…
Massive shoutout to my teacher who taught us this junior or senior year. Was absolutely shocked.
Master Miyagi from Karate Kid also had it rough.
And George Takei
Guantanamo Bay is/was its own fresh hell, but it was not a concentration camp.
Why is it not?
Because it was used for a select few (relatively speaking). It wasn’t a camp built to concentrate a sizeable portion of our population into one small area.
I’ve already said that there are good arguments for why this shouldn’t be considered a concentration camp, and this isn’t one of them. This is like saying genocide isn’t genocide because the unique tribe you wiped out was only a couple hundred people. So, if you took that same tribe of people and put them in a camp and resteicted their movement, would you not consider it a concentration camp because of it’s size?
Gitmo was never meant to store large amounts of people (and not civilians). It was a place that was conveniently located that allow them to detain and torture individuals. That’s not a concentration camp dude.
Even when they started trying to send some migrants there, there were articles saying that they didn’t have the facilities for it because it was never meant for that.
It was an off the record black torture/interrogation site. They didn’t send every taliban they accounted there. It was selective.
Ah, sorry, I didn’t realize that the Nazis sent all their prisoners to one camp. I guess those weren’t concentration camps, either.
I’m sure the Nazis had torture/interrogation sites too.
Nobody said that not being a concentration camp made Guantanamo ok.
No, someone just said it’s not a concentration camp because everyone of one demographic wasn’t there.
Actually, on further thought, I’ll give you that. But, unsurprisingly, limited rights abuses tend to lead to more extensive rights abuses, and the only really surprising thing is that it took more than 20 years to go from torture camps to concentration camps. Waiting for those ghettos, Poland style.
You misinterpreted my response. The point is the intention (giving 1 example at the time of operation). That intention was interrogation not concentrating undesirables.
The stated purpose of CECOT is to put people in violently cramped, close confinement with each other until they die.
It is a deathcamp.
Exactly it’s a death camp.
They’re right that we should at minimum not allow them to define how we talk about this, and we should call it what it is.
But we should also have a plan to avoid getting put in a concentration camp when we do so. Stay safe, and be good everyone.
America already had concentration camps in the form of ICE detention camps and prisons. The trials most faced before being sent to prison do not some how make those prisons not concentration camps. Those also have inhumane living conditions, forced labor, dehumanization, brutal violence, isolation from accountability, psychological torture and murder.
El Salvador is certainly worse, but we didn’t get here overnight. The american people have been conditioned to accept this over decades by sending millions of people to internal slave labor camps with the thin excuse of “but they had due process!!!1!”
excellent point
By the way, only some concentrations camps in Nazi Germany were exterminations camps. So even without any mass murder this can easily be regarded as equivalent in function to a concentration camp.
Specifically, extermination camps are industrialized human suffering. Something like an assembly line that builds cars, except the output is death.
All that said, splitting hairs about the definition of this stuff is not a good place to be.
We invented concentration camps in the US to deal with Chinese and Native American “undesirables,” back in the mid 1800s. This is just the third time, at least, we have started using them. We only pretend to be better than the Nazis because we didn’t have the idea to use them as mass murder camps, just slow death camps.
You forget 120,000 people of Japanese descent during WW2. And the Biden ICE camps.
And how about Guantanamo for some added gruesome torture?
The one that Obama definitely and immediately was going to close when elected.
And it would’ve been no problem since the US used Polish black sites and other vasal places to do it.I started the timeframe in the mid 1800s. The WWII camps were the second or third time we used them. One could argue that the modern day Industrial Prison Complex is also another variation that we are using of the same theme.
How is this all going so fast, tho? Didn’t it take the nazis a few years to get to this point?
The El Salvador facility was already built in 2022 during Pres. Bukele’s national crackdown on gang violence. Since it was only running at half capacity (and to ingratiate himself with Trump most likely), Bukele has offered to incarcerate deported gang members there, especially those who were refused by their home countries.
Nazis got to all the points they wanted so lightning-fast that nothing happening now can rival it.
That’s one of the reasons for the cultural shock about Nazis - everybody expected such processes to happen very slowly, in small flashes, as they do now. Thus them to be voted out or pressed out as a reaction, or at least for most potential victims to flee Germany, gradual pressure, compromise, all that.
Instead they came to power, almost momentarily changed the internal balance of power (of armed forces, their own paramilitary organizations, veteran organizations and such), anschlussed Austria, “solved unemployment” (organized massive programs of building autobahns and such, not very economically viable, but a symbol and a working mechanism), attracted investments (various scams on enormous scale, but the funds were attracted and it wasn’t all scams), scaled the military back to something realistic, performed successful rearmament programs … And built concentration camps. They started with something like Guantanamo almost immediately after coming to power, then didn’t lose any time to learn.
See, they had an apparatus, even a social layer of very well educated people, but with indoctrination of service and obedience, and the legacy of German science and industry and patriotism too. They broke that, but not before successfully using it for a lot of things.
That’s the problem with building good systems, they prevent idiots from learning who they are earlier. It’s the same with Sun and DEC and other legacy in tech. Everybody still uses their paradigms and products descended from theirs. Vision, architecture, aesthetic (only hidden somewhere deep). So everybody big has now IMHO wrong ideas about how to solve problems, but since everybody also uses solutions made by those who had right ideas 30-15 years ago, they don’t get the feedback. Today’s tech is a pile of crap reinforced with yesteryear grass, but it doesn’t fall apart in your hands because for the main problems you use solutions from a more civilized age.
While this was informative, I don’t quite understand the progressive change from concentration camps in nazi Germany to a fanatic escalating hate for… Uh… x86 architecture?
Sounds like a really, really wild ride to be on.
It’s a more general thought. Our actions do not have immediate visible consequences. Thus we can break everything and think we are winning.
Also on the subject of Nazis it does possess some value, they loved analogies between relevant modern techologies of their time and sociopolitical events. Where the word “anschluss” comes from, by the way. It literally translates like “connecting”, as with electricity. Well, electricity wasn’t new, but radio was, Nazis used radio a lot and referred to use of radio to show how modern and revolutionary they are.
Important because it applies to leftists often, if you say “leftists made Trump” or “leftists made MAGA” or “leftists broke American democracy” or something like that, it’ll sound clearly wrong, but it won’t be. USSR was a clear case of using what others made and thinking that it’s their own achievement by its administrators, most of its history, while first they were using the tremendous results of Stolypin reforms and then NEP (Lenin was a bit smarter than his buddies), and then selling fossil resources to support visibility of a working economy, but that’s kinda off topic.
I’m not talking about x86 architecture, I’m talking about everyone using Java and Sun idea of the web, just slowly worsened and degenerate, first of all. Or Windows NT, it was fine in year 1999, but being stuck there for 20 years is just wrong.
So, back to our day and how it’s useful, systems should have smaller latency for evolution to work well. Like those temples in Japan, which are constantly being rebuilt in all of their parts. You should be able to tear down a republic and build a new one in a couple of years.
Getting back to Nazis - if the system they captured had smaller latency, they wouldn’t have managed to even annex Austria.
The Nazis didn’t have the historical context of the Nazis’ rise to power to help guide them.
No, Dachau concentration camp was started in March 1933, just a few months after Hitler took power.
