Right. I spent the last several hours trying to get a mixed batch of Win10, Win11, and Win10-upgraded-from-8 computers to talk to a printer and had just about enough of this argument. If you want a pissing match of who can be the biggest dick, take it to Twitter.
Locked.
If you’re complaining about windows on linuxmemes, I’m not sure it’s rational to expect no one to mention linux.
People don’t want solutions, they want to bitch endlessly and have a horde of strangers agree with them. Then they can also bitch about nothing improving!
People in my life get the benefit of “are you looking for solutions or are you looking for empathy?” Randos on the Internet don’t get to use everyone else as free therapists.
Same mood when people complain about corpo media
I feel for them, but they should know they are making a choice by staying
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It’s the nail in the head all over again
Did Lemmy just compare using a computer to domestic abuse… really…
That’s some out of touch bullshit. These are not comparable on any level. I get this is a meme section for Linux, but it’s some out of touch bullshit.
How this same conversation can sound to non-technical folks:
“my boyfriend left his dirty socks in the living room AGAIN.”
“Well maybe you should switch boyfriends”
“…what?”
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are you saying ms is not invading users’ privacy by scanning all their files, contents included, it possible? while also removing more and more control options over how the system runs
I feel like they’re saying that what you described doesn’t equate to do getting hit in the face by your boyfriend, which is subjective.
This is the level of delusion the average Linux evangelist operates at.
Thinking you should leave an abusive boyfriend / girlfriend is delusional now?
Shh, just let them complain about their boyfriend.
This brings back bad memories lol
You mean from just now? Otherwise I don’t get the reference
Thinking its as simple as “Just leave your boyfriend” is pretty fucking delusional, yeah.
People trying to shame us encouraging people switching to a OS that respects our privacy from the shit show Microsoft has become makes me roll my eyes every single time.
We pass so much of our time in front of a screen. Why not do it while retaining our freedom as much as we can? Sure, if you must use it for work, it is what it is, but Linux is definitely something worth learning using no matter what your technical level is.
If you can navigate through Windows with some degree of confidence, you absolutely can use Linux effectively. You can go full GUI no problem if you want to.
Linux is so easy nowaday. Yeah, some niche things might require some digging around, but that’s nothing compared to the bullshit you have to accept from Microsoft.
If it’s not for work, I’m sorry but use Linux or stop bitching. The correct answer will always be don’t use the trojan OS.
Yeah ok, so use linux
ITT: people who have never had to learn that sometimes when someone complains to you they are not solution oriented, and it genuinely just feels good to share something wry/ridiculous to bond over.
It’s a good skill to pick up, folks. Definitely comes into play in relationships.
Boss told me I couldn’t use EndeavourOS because “it doesn’t work with M$ InTune”.
So I said if I could make an old unused laptop work with that setup, maybe the company could turn that into a pilot system and we could be more sexy to new developers we want to hire.
Boss said why not. IT said sure, here’s your laptop, have fun.
A few months later, a couple of devs have switched to Linux. Some have kept Windows. Some didn’t care because they have Macs. Everyone’s happy, we have more options, and everyone can choose what they subjectively feel is the best tool for the job - which is what professionals do instead of fighting.
And we actually hired a new dev who uses Linux.
Boss told me I couldn’t use EndeavourOS because “it doesn’t work with M$ InTune”.
That’s technically not true, it will work but with the caveat that Intune will show the device as non-compliant for the OS itself. If the OS version isn’t included in any of the applied policies then it shouldn’t matter.
You’re right, but I did manage to make the device show up as a compliant Linux laptop in their Intune UI, and that was all that mattered to them.
They don’t care that you have to make Intune think the distro is Ubuntu when it’s in fact EndeavourOS. Some necktie people were satisfied with the result and devs can now use Linux. Après moi, le déluge.
The necktie people’s understanding of tech is probably limited to “green good red bad” while looking at spreadsheets. It’s better if they don’t know about whatever wizardry you performed.
Ok, now I’m actually curious how you managed to do that. Please do tell!
Ok but have you tried linux?
The inverse of this should also be true. Just because my game occasionally takes a minute to get set up as I try one or two different versions of proton doesn’t mean I want to be told to switch to windows so I can get my data mined further.
I have a fundamental problem with this attitude. If you recognize there’s a problem, and the problem disturbs you, and you CAN fix it, why not fix it? It’s not world hunger, it’s a computer for God’s sakes. Maybe I don’t want to hear people complain about problems that are 100% within their control and refuse to fix it.
Not about GNU/Linux. Just my thoughts on complaining about simple problems with easy solutions.
Edit: typo
Literally read the post and just decided to ignore the two examples huh?
If you recognize there’s a problem, and the problem disturbs you, and you CAN fix it, why not fix it?
Because if the fix for any particular problem is to learn a new OS, that’s a steep cost for things that can just be minor annoyances. If you’re in Lemmy, chances are you’re comfortable with nerdy shit, and not everyone is.
On top of that, Linux has its own quirks, so it’s not a panacea. There’s no easy way for me to change scroll speed on a track pad in fedora/gnome, for example.
I installed Mint on my MIL computer. I did not have to spend time teaching her anything. People are able to switch from Windows to Apple no problem but for some reason Linux is
learn a new OS, that’s a steep cost
”Linux is only free if your time is worthless” springs to mind.
With that attitude, nothing is free. And the “free” in free and open-source means free as in free speech, not as in free beer. Your comment is also generally disrespectful to the people who invest actual time into creating the software that you rely on everyday and take for granted. FOSS software is deployed all over the world and there is no software environment that does not make use of it in some form, not even MS Windows. So you think the time of the people who put their skills to use for the betterment of computing overall is worthless? You guys do not even begin to understand how many resources and how much thought is expended by strangers for your comfort.
Relax, it’s just a joke almost as old as Linux itself.
Sunk cost though. You spent the time learning Windows. At least Linux is far more likely to be an enduring skill that won’t try to monetise your time investment by trying to balance enshittifying your experience the perfect amount just enough that you don’t jump ship.
But using Linux is not a solution, that is the whole point of the post. Why can’t you read?
I CAN NOT install a different OS on my work computer because I do not manage them and NONE of our company software works on Linux.
I’d get more use out of it if I just smash my computer with a brick than if I switched the OS to Linux.
If enough people bring it up to their work, then the policy can be re-evaluated.
I take it to the next level and rant at our CEO about it. We’ve actually saved a good amount of money with Linux.
I reply “just use Linux” because I’m hoping for the one in a million chance that your boss reads the thread and goes “what’s Linux?” and then decides to switch your company to Linux.
That will never happen.
I can tell you from personal experience that you’re wrong
Im happy to hear that.
Oh look, I found someone who didn’t read the post
But like - use Linux?
My employer keeps saying I can’t do this
Oh easy. Just use Linux
time to rice a linux to camoflague the desktop. as long as it looks like windows theyll not see the difference right
I trick Windows-only vendor programs in the exact same way
Just dropping this here: https://gitgud.io/wackyideas/aerothemeplasma/
I solved this by using Linux anyway and being way more productive than other folks.
Keep asking, keep telling colleagues about it. Be kind. Change is a process.
Doubt they are going to replace tons of proprietary software costing thousands of dollars because some nerd on the internet told them to.
CERN is doing exactly this: https://home.cern/news/news/computing/three-year-malt-project-comes-close
Governments in Europe from local to state are doing it as well: https://eu-os.eu/ https://gitlab.opencode.de/sh
Many companies already allow Macs to used at work. The same process applies to Linux.
costing thousands of dollars
If I had a dollar for every $10k my company paid Microsoft…
Overthrow that guy, he is clearly unqualified. Power to the people.
Then complain about it
There’s only so much incessant bitching I can hear about dark patterns, intrusive automatic updates, shoehorned-in and useless AI, zero user choice, planned obsolesence, and being blindsided by enshittification before I say “just try using the free thing that doesn’t have those problems”.
“I’ve tried nothing, and I’m all out of ideas.” If you have to for work or something, though, I totally get it and encourage the bitching.
They literally pointed out that a lot of the people saying this kind of stuff may genuinely be unskilled when it comes to computers in general.
Why is it “trying nothing” when the other option to get up to speed enough to use Linux is to basically be taking some college-level courses on the side of their every day life just to be able to use their device appropriately?
For people who aren’t tech savvy at all, “Ain’t nobody got the time for that!” is a completely fucking reasonable response to being told they need to go learn a bunch of shit about some subject they could give a rats ass about.
It’s like telling someone who has a law degree and works 50 hours a week at a law firm that if they want more control over their car they need to take some courses on automotive repair so they don’t have to deal with an annoying repair shop. As above, ain’t nobody got the time for that!
Literally every Linux nerd seems to forget that this is specialized knowledge that not everyone has dumped skill points into.
I gave my grandma a Linux, she had no idea. All she needed was a web browser that didn’t feed her ads and give her issues. Fedora with KDE was super simple for her to figure out how to use and actually had better accessibility features for her. And it was free.
Linux is actually pretty noob friendly nowadays. And if you don’t want to mess with it yourself, you can buy computers with Linux preinstalled today.
I get that sometimes people just want to complain and not solution. But like, using windows and other surveillance capitalism adjacent products is a path to fascism so like…maybe people should just, critically evaluate their problems and think of solutions every now and then?
Many distros of linux are easier to use than osx or windows.
I’m glad I don’t have to deal with registry editor anymore.
I literally use Linux in my daily life non-stop. My desktop is free from Windows and I run numerous servers for various services and microservices.
I just fundamentally disagree with the hivemind that Linux desktop of any flavor is ready for casual user prime-time. Even if they don’t have technical issues with now that doesn’t mean they won’t have technical issues with it ever. In my personal experience, I have only ever had successful long-term rollouts of non-gui cli-only servers. I have always had issues of some sort crop up with desktop Linux eventually.
Further, depending on the DE, getting things set up properly for someone who has, say, vision issues so everything is easily visible for them can often be a fucking nightmare of numerous different config files for different parts of the GUI. Linux accessibility options are notoriously bad.
If you want to pretend Linux is a perfect solution for grandmas, go ahead, but as someone who is a Linux heavy user who doesn’t even use Windows anymore and hasn’t in a while I think that this attitude from Linux evangelists is deeply rooted in a rose tinted view of the OS and it’s user friendliness. And yes I use the term evangelist for a fucking reason, and that is because you people are as fucking pushy about your ideology as evangelical Christians.
I always hate it when people talk about “eventual issues that people will encounter on Linux”.
As if Windows doesn’t have those of varying degrees. Usually because Microsoft pushes out an update that breaks things.
“eventual issues that people will encounter on Linux”.
They have trained themselves to ignore it as just Windows.
When I used windows, I would have issues every other update.
With Linux it’s like once a year, unless I do something stupid to my own system with sudo.
Linux powerusers will do something stupid to their own system with sudo and then say Linux isn’t ready for normies because you need sudo in order to fix it
Pretty much my experience, though I didn’t want to give the guy I was replying to any personal anecdotes lol.
So then what’s the fucking difference if they’re bitching about their issues with Windows versus bitching about their issues with Linux? Doesn’t that bring us back to the original post? Let people complain. If they’re going to have issues either way and bitch either way, why the fuck do you have to evangelize them to get them to shut up about the ones you’re ideologically opposed to? What are you really doing other than having them bitch about something you feel happy about? You haven’t materially made their life better, they still have computer issues they hate, but now they just have a smaller number of people they can turn to for help. Great job.
If the issue is just “my PC is becoming slow, it’s full of annoying AI and i don’t want X microft bullshit” reccomensing Linux will totally help tbf
I just fundamentally disagree with the hivemind
Isn’t it funny how when a lot of people disagree with you it has become a hivemind, as opposed to a common consensus among individuals that you are wrong? What a fantastic term to avoid actually reconsidering your opinion or actually listening to someone else’s point of view.
“Could there be multiple people who disagree with me?
No, it’s the hivemind who is wrong.”I’m not pretending anything. I literally did what I said and gave it to my grandma and I hooked her up with a local computer repair guy that will do house calls and knows Linux because I live very far away. This worked well for 10 years or so until she died.
Im not saying people don’t have issues with Linux. It’s still a computer.
Are you saying people don’t run into issues using windows?
If you need windows for very specific thjngs, I get it. But for most people, if they had a local PC shop that they could trust with Linux issues, then it would be as convenient as windows if not more.
I hooked her up with a local computer repair guy that will do house calls and knows Linux because I live very far away.
…is vastly different than what first post suggested, and literally ignored the major point of my original post which was that most people simply don’t have the time to figure it out and most also don’t have a Linux-repair-guy on hand. Talk about shifting goalposts here.
Of course people have issues on Windows, that’s why they’re always bitching about it. You don’t think someone who likes to bitch wouldn’t bitch to their Linux-repair-guy when they had Linux issues?
And yes I use the term evangelist for a fucking reason, and that is because you people are as fucking pushy about your ideology as evangelical Christians.
I didn’t realize we were sending gay kids off to camps to be given electroshock therapy.
This is the thing that had Balmer so disgusted with us in the 2000s…~
I’ve handed noobs Linux machines and they use them just fine, they understand how to open the browser and steam and thats basically 90% of what they need the PC for. They aren’t power users and aren’t installing anything else from what I’ve seen. I gave a bazzite machine to a cousin about four months ago and she’s just happy to play some hello Kitty game she didn’t have on her switch.
I have a buddy on discord who works in IT and works on Linux servers a lot too and he basically said the same thing, that Linux isnt good for genpop, but like, I’m genpop and I found it much simpler than dealing with windows all the time. I tell him all the time too, like I’m not sure what he thinks is so difficult about it, I just login and open Firefox, then close it and shut my PC down. From time to time I edit photos and play games on steam. I’m not building ai models or anything crazy, heck I haven’t even changed the desktop wallpaper because I’m not on the desktop long enough to care.
Not everyone knows how to, or is physically able to, cook food, but its pretty rare for people to get angry and offended if someone tries to suggest a recipe to them. People do that a lot with computers though.
You don’t have to know much. It’d be like convincing somehow to learn to change a tire. Yeah you gotta figure it out for a sec, but it’s not a whole as master class or anything.
I feel like average linux-user here really overestimates the skill level of a typical random computer user lmao.
I installed linux mint on my extra laptop to test it out (going to switch because end of win10 support. Didn’t before because I just had no reason blah blah), and oh boy. It’s not difficult, but there’s no way someone pretty average tech-skill-less could learn to install it by just reading instructions - and this isn’t even just because of the OS itself. I had only simple trouble, like how to get to BIOS, which was not a linux issue but old lenovo being a bitch and took me like half a minute to resolve. But just something like that would absolutely stop someone not knowing what they’re doing, because an install guide wouldn’t help with that - you have to have some pre-knowledge of what to even search for to find solutions. Not to mention the possible OS issues themselves, like me having to install, delete and re-install wine because of some weird bug happening and it installing itself only partially despite me using the recommended terminal commands to install it… etc.
And many couldn’t install windows either if they had to first burn it to a stick and go from there, so I’m not trying to bash linux itself (at least mint would indeed be super easy to use for even a skill-less grandma moving from windows). Saying “just learn” is just about as helpful as “use linux” - to move a lot of people to linux from windows, probably most of them will either have to get help or have it already installed. So they’ll just stick with win11 because it’s what’s they’re going to have
Maybe they do. I work with users directly and yeah most are not willing to learn if it’s framed that way, but they all do learn. They learn quirks of the OS and installed programs over time because their jobs demand it.
If you search “how to install Linux” or “how to install an OS” you’ll be met with a shit ton of documentation and videos on YouTube with plenty to go off of, followed by comments of people that have already had the problems and questions you’ve had. Only when you get to truly complex things will you start to have a harder time researching your issue.
It’s just a matter of will and circumstances. All of the people that work in the parts of European government that are switching over to Linux will undoubtedly learn, the same way they’ve had to learn windows and windows based programs/installers.
The reason I know how to install an OS is likely the same reason anyone else does. Problem occurred on windows years ago, after reading enough about the problem, discovered its best to reinstall Windows, searched how to reinstall Windows, and after windows shitting the bed more than once on my PCs and friends and families, it’s a learned skill that I’ve developed out of necessity for what I or they were trying to do.
The same applies on the other side of the fence, that’s all I’m really trying to say here. It’s the same problems (aside from enshittification, selling user data, etc.) with slightly different solutions.
If you search “how to install Linux” or “how to install an OS”
I don’t really disagree with you, but I think this kinda highlights part of the problem: there’s many people that don’t even know what an operating system is. Just as you said, they can learn and they probably will learn when they have to, but a lot of people don’t have to, so they’ll just stick with win11 even if they struggle with it’s stupid shit. We’re going to hear this complaining about win11 for years to come, and telling people to switch to linux will just cause the type of irritation described in the original image there…
I admit that personally I’m in the weird spot where my father worked in IT in the 90s and the tech kinda came home with him, so I don’t exactly know how people usually learn this stuff. I just grew up with it
I gotcha, and yeah, most people avoid learning at all costs, it’s kind of insane.
Accessibility point aside, just because I can’t speak on that not having had to use the features, people that don’t fix their own shit on Linux aren’t fixing their own shit on windows/iOS either, aside from the occasional flat tire. That was the point I was trying to make. Those who do their own troubleshooting will learn no problem.
Those who do their own troubleshooting will learn no problem.
That stance I can agree with, but I fundamentally do not agree that Linux is appropriate for the kind of people who don’t do their own troubleshooting. Because my point is that is specialized knowledge that not everyone has the time to give to, which is why a lot of people don’t troubleshoot their own shit, because they have spent their skill points elsewhere.
Trust me I have met lawyers and doctors who are fucking mystified by computers and don’t even want to get into learning the troubleshooting. That’s what they have IT departments for. Similarly, changing a tire might just be too much trouble for them and that’s why they pay other people to do it.
Yeah I get it, but windows isn’t ready for those users either. In my experience, I fuck with them just about the same. How I fuck with them is often different, but I still have to. In fact, I have to fuck with windows so much because it’s my job to do it, that’s my main driver for using Linux is so I don’t feel like I’m at home working when something fucks up.
I will say though, even if you disagree that theyre on par with each other as far as mundane fuckups go, Linux is and has been closing in super fast, and I’m pretty damn excited about it
But if Windows isn’t ready for those users either, why are people in this thread shitting all over them for not switching to something else they’re not ready for? They’ll complain either way when shit doesn’t work.
I feel like so many people are basing their opinion of Linux on outdated ideas of what it can and can’t do.
There are distros that are incredibly fucking simple and stable. Easier and faster to set up than Windows.
Not defending the behavior in question, but Linux nowadays is MUCH simpler to understand than Windows or MacOS. It is by far the easiest operating system to change to, and the easiest to learn if you are somehow not familiar with any. From a user standpoint it’s the least “techie” OS now (aside from mobile OS of course).
What you describe about “needing to take courses” was true ten years ago, it was probably true three years ago. It is just simply not true now.
I use Arch as my daily driver and it is absurd how easy it is to use.
Updating all drivers and programs and the system updates in one command is so awesome and convenient.
Very easy to use… once up and running. But there are other distros out there (Bazzite comes to mind as a good example) that “Just work” on a level even Macs can’t approach. Installation is the only “complicated” part but I’m sure we’ll see some manufacturers installing Bazzite by default in good time.
yaysudo pacman -Syu
I don’t really use yay much.
Yea, so this whole argument falls apart with all the easy beginner distros. They’re out of the box easy to use and require minimal computer skills beyond knowing your password, how to use a mouse, and how to use a keyboard. Drivers may not be perfect for everything like your gpu, but if you’re using a GPU you probably have enough vomputer skills to google why the driver ism’t working.
“Uh, I bought my computer from Alienware. I don’t know what a GPU is.”
In 2025, you (in the general sense, not @SnotFlickerman specifically) are not entitled to be unskilled and bitch about it. You are being made to care about how to properly deal with technology, because you cannot function in society without some baseline level of computer literacy.
Don’t like it? Go live in a fucking shack in the woods, like the Unabomber.
So get skilled.
may genuinely be unskilled when it comes to computers in general.
I do not accept this idea that people are so unskilled at computers they can’t install Linux, and are so immutably so they can’t get better.
Like yeah sometimes you have to ask for help or watch a YouTube video. That shit’s free and right there.
It’s learned helplessness
They definitely exist, but it feels like stubbornness at that point. It absolutely isn’t a lack of capability, it’s a lack of willingness.
Getting around people’s lack of willingness is the only way the year of the linux desktop will ever happen.
Like with global warming, people can just choose not to, you know.
We need some repair cafe type setup where linux nerds get to set up linux on people’s machines.
Nah, it will never work. Grandma Esthel is gonna get Arch Linux on her 20yo machine and everyone is gonna be unhappy still.
I hear you, but in a lot of these cases the people with complaints are not competent. Anyone who has worked helpdesk or adjacent has seen boatloads of 'em. Imagine I’m an oldie or fool or even grew up without electrical power and I barely know how a computer works. I don’t really want to work with them and I think turning the monitor on and off is a reboot. Windows is horrible with all this bloat and AI and so much confusing shit but usability-wise it makes some sense I guess. I could do with a change but I can’t do anything confusing or outside of my limited range. I’m probably not installing a good distro. I am not partitioning a drive. I am not creating a bootable USB. What do I do?
The only option here is to have them go out on a limb and buy a machine online pre-installed with Linux or have someone else set it up, right?
What do I do?
Not literally, of course. But if you don’t have the baseline level of skill to exist in a technological society without being absolutely reamed by predatory corporations and other scammers and also refuse help to learn how to defend yourself, at some point that’s a “you” problem and you deserve to fucking lose.
No but genuinely I resonate with this answer so much. Imagine if you needed to pass a computer literacy test to own any sort of “smart” device/computer and needed a license to operate it. It would eliminate so many scam call centers and would make so many IT teams work load decrease 10x. Imagine the complete LACK of mis/disinformation on the internet. Sometimes i wish that were the world we were in.
While I agree with the “fuck 'em” attitude to a certain extent I’m not sure that should apply to the entire gradient of differently abled. A lot of people who are mentally infirm have to continue to work in this hellscape and may have real roadblocks preventing learning about 'puters and the interweb and there’s not a whole lot of resources anyway for people who don’t live in the city. But yeah I don’t expect a magic answer. Your GIF might actually be the best way haha.
Boomerism is not a mental illness they just don’t understand computers
Just don’t hire incompetent people then
I’m looking at the issues that I face with Linux, which mostly are related to companies not willing to make drivers, nor allowing other people to make open source drivers…
Then I look over my shoulder and see people working on windows, and I just know that my problems are nothing
