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I still dont get why you wouldn’t bump Ubuntu towards the corporate direction one more square.

My car was made before that and I want it to keep going as long as possible. It has great gas mileage and very few problems.

Boring dystopia :(

If I am used to Ubuntu, would I ever want to be on a rolling release?

And if I tried heroin and it was bad was also even more common.

Just `man future` .

Seriously, RTFM.

/s jk, this comment brought to you by parody.

It is not the only evidence, as you say, but it is particularly good evidence.

Yes that would piss me off too!! We are in 100% agreement there.

We also have a few venomous snakes that can injure people – I didn’t think of that at first! Typically never on the crowded trails but if you go on any branches they’re there.

I think we will have to agree to disagree on some points due to different backgrounds. On extremely crowded trails near me, danger from wildlife is just not common where I’m from. If I was in California, maybe I would have to worry about mountain lions, but even they do not like crowds, so I’m not sure what wild animals you are considering a risk. I think probably the most risky animal would be something you could get a bee sting and anaphylaxis from, which would be more dangerous in the back country, I agree. But it doesn’t seem significantly different if you are hiking alone and the person right behind you calls 911 in 20 seconds when they reach you, or if the person right next to you calls 911.

Some trails have fall potential and some don’t. It would be a very different thing to leave somebody to attempt half dome on their own versus a nice hike in the woods, even when going up to a pleasant summit.

I’ve heard kayakers say never boat alone, but where I live at least the same thing is not true for hiking, mountain biking or even rock climbing for that matter. Maybe that’s a rule of thumb in your area that just doesn’t exist here. I would definitely never ever swim alone, though. The common training here for hikers is to carry the ten outdoor essentials even on easy hikes, and practice leave no trace, including step 1: Always let somebody know where you’re going and when you’ll come back.

To me the biggest issue here is communication. If I was expecting to meet my hiking partner back at the car, but when I got there they had driven off already, I would be really miffed, not knowing what happened. It would be even worse if their car was there, but they were not there.

On the other hand, if they told me, hey, I’ve got to leave early, I’m going to head back to the trailhead now, and I said, okay, fine, I’ll see you next time and finish the hike on my own. I don’t see any problem doing that. To me, there’s no set in-stone rule against hiking alone, the way there is for swimming alone or boating alone, because it is just not as risky, and, in fact, is quite routine. That’s why it’s hard for me to call most back country areas near me ‘wilderness’, because they are so close to civilization, so dominated by human impacts that there is just so little added risk that you wouldn’t have in the front country.

I disagree that a popular trail with many people can be called wilderness, but I would be okay calling it a backcountry location.

There are not too many things that can harm you on such a trail compared to another comparable physical activity, like playing soccer on a field for instance. The main difference is that it is harder to get to definitive care if you do get hurt.

On the soccer field, the ambulance pulls up in 5-10 minutes when you sprain an ankle or get stung by a bee and your airway closes up. On the hike, ideally you splint yourself and walk out if you roll your ankle, And do anything you can if you get that bee sting and have a life-threatening anaphylaxis, including call 911, lie down flat on your back, take bandadryls if you have them, and use your epipan if you have it.

But in both these cases you’re never really alone because there are so many other people. And on the trail, there’s probably a higher chance of encountering somebody with first aid training than on the soccer field.

To be honest, I’m not sure what exactly the context of your question was, but I assume it has something to do with leaving somebody to hike alone on these popular trails like angel falls or delicate arch in general.

In the specific example of the article, I don’t think it was a super big deal that the original person left her to go home with another woman, because she didn’t seem too much in danger, just emotionally hurt. She even told him to go on and hike ahead of her. In the worst case, there are plenty other people who would help her if she were to roll an ankle, have car trouble, or something. And she had cell service the whole time. To me, this isn’t that different than getting up and leaving somebody in the middle of a jog in a nice neighborhood that you arrived at separately, if you had a fight with them. The biggest difference being the response time of EMS.

From reading these other comments, though, a lot of people seem to feel like being left alone on a hike would be more stressful than being left alone in the front country, which I don’t really understand, but I can accept that people would feel like that. I would hate to be abandoned at a party or at a bar, for instance – It’s not somewhere I’m comfortable at all. And I’d much rather walk back to my car alone on a popular well marked trail in the daytime.

The example of the woman at Delicate Arch is more confusing since it seems she actually was having a medical issue of some kind giving her vertigo. I don’t think the two should have separated in that case, but it’s really hard to decipher what actually happened in that situation, Especially having just one side of the story.

The example that involved the woman dying in the mountains is wildly different to me. I really don’t like how much male ego the guy seems to have in that he had abandoned previous partner on a different trip and how he had declined a helicopter rescue for both of them when they were first in trouble. In my opinion, he killed the person he was with by doing that.

There seems to be no world to me in which the situation on the angel falls trail is at all comparable to the gross negligence in that last example.

Explain

Thanks for the explanation. It sounds like depending on the underlying cause of the vertigo, it could either be safe for them to wait, sitting down in shade, with other people, for the other person to retrieve the camera, or unsafe if it is from a serious medical condition. I guess the part that’s still a mystery to me is how severe vertigo would happen to somebody out of the blue, without other details making it clear if you needed evac or not. If it was really bad and really sudden, and not improving, that would be cause for rapid evac precisely because it is a mystery!

I feel like if I was in that situation, I would want more context to know whether they were improving with rest, shade, food, and water, and it might be safe to leave them and get my camera; or whether it was an emergency and we prioritize them and their evac over the camera.

In either case, if they’re scared and don’t want me to leave, I don’t see how I’m gonna get my camera back, unfortunately.

To be clear, it’s wrong to abandon somebody in need. I just wish I knew more details to understand the situation better. It just seems like there must have been signs before this that something wasn’t right before both of them are together, dangerously close to a cliff and able to knock a camera down. But maybe not, we weren’t there.

I hope this never happens to me.

That all makes sense about what vertigo is, and where the priorities lie. I guess the part that wasn’t clear to me in the article was whether they had made a plan for the guy to come back after retrieving the camera or if he had just left her there and gone back on his own. Also what was happening with her leading up to knocking the camera over, and if there weren’t any warning signs either of them could have listened to to prevent the situation from deteriorating so far.

Just because if I am putting myself in the shoes of either person, the decisions of both of them don’t really make sense to me. If I’m the one having vertigo, I’m going to do what I need to to make it better, wait in a safe place for him to get the camera and come back, and communicate this plan, unless I truly need rapid evac in which case I ask for it.

If I’m the guy, I make sure the person with vertigo is safe, relaxed as much as possible, with other people if possible, with any supplies I can spare, and OK with me leaving. Then I leave my pack, go down the steep terrain to get the camera, come back, and help her evac. Or if we’ve met any good Samaritans, make some kind of plan to meet them further down if climbing back up isn’t realistic.

Maybe I just can’t fathom a douchebag being like, “sucks to suck, I’m getting the camera you knocked over in your sudden unexpected vertigo, and leaving you alone, high and dry.” Who does that?? Guys in the article I guess.

The wilderness is dangerous, and the red line for me is leaving without making sure everyone in your party is making it back safely. There can be exceptions to this rule, but none applied in what was presented. There were plenty of stories in the article and in these comments where predominantly masc- folx were being jerks.

This last one really confuses me. Like if somebody knocked my camera down some rocks, I would go down and get it unless I thought they were experiencing a medical emergency of some kind.

Is Vertago a serious condition? I thought it meant getting dizzy when you’re afraid of heights. I suppose if I were in that position I would want to sit down with my hiking partner and make sure we had a plan like hey I know you’re feeling uncomfortable, but it doesn’t look like you’re in any danger. I need to get that camera back because it is expensive. I’ll meet you back here and we can hike down together.

Also, and I’m asking this out of pure ignorance, If someone has vertigo, at what point is it their responsibility to turn back rather than put themselves in an uncomfortable position? Maybe they shouldn’t have gone up where the camera got knocked down in the first place. But on the other hand maybe it happens by surprise and there’s no predicting it.

Sorry, but I’m not going to put myself at risk by hiking so fast that I get out of breath.

Also, if I’m trying to enjoy nature, I’m going to find a hiking buddy who won’t mind if I hike at my own pace. If I’m going too fast, I don’t enjoy it.

If I were your hiking partner, I’d probably start out the hike with you and then say, hey, you go on ahead at your own pace. Let’s meet up at such and such a place. I would absolutely not want to be rushed ahead. And if that didn’t work out, I just would not go on hikes with you again unless there was a way we could both enjoy it on our own terms, or unless it really meant a lot to you for some reason.

I agree with you. It just gives them plausible deniability. Better to communicate clearly. “Stop walking so fast. I can’t keep up. I don’t feel comfortable being left behind. In fact, if you leave me behind, I’ll start a TikTok trend to shame you.”

Are you talking about the famous case? Where the guy declined the helicopter rescue, and later left his partner without being wrapped in a sheet to get help? That one sounds way more alpine than getting ditched on a crowded hike.

But it is also not true that they were at risk? Any more than you could die anywhere.

“A man is not a plan”