To be fair: The Democratic Party isn’t a viable political engine for positive social change or a working-class agenda. If Cuomo wins it will be yet another example of how untrustworthy, hypocritical, and vapid Blue No Matter Who voting habits are.
Remember when mods coordinated to ban any criticism of BNMW / Blue Maga from all the major subs during 2024? How they the cultivated a community of briggading, sea-lioning, etc… to try and suppress any criticism of an approach to politics that was obviously going to hand the country to Trump?
My ass. I wish the mods had banned obviously disingenuous “let’s let Trump win to make a point, what’s the difference anyway” made-up critique that blamed Kamala Harris for Gaza and inflation, under a tissue-thin pretense of “I just care about the country sooooooooooooooooooooo much that I’m giving well informed constructive criticism.” Instead we had to just yell at y’all about it in the comments, which since there were hundreds of posts and comments every single day with that viewpoint was always a losing battle. Even trolling of crayon-quality transparency of the UniversalMonk variety was explicitly allowed by the mods, and people who objected to it too strongly got banned for it.
The whining about how you’re not allowed to get your message out, which is constantly broadcasted on every channel where you’re claiming you’re being silenced, is just part and parcel of the alternate reality you’re having a good bit of success in constructing. MAGA does it too, it’s part of the package.
You do understand that your cynical lying about the past is why your camp is losing the argument? I mean, I don’t dislike you, at least not personally, and and even if I have to drag you by the hair onto the right side of history, I’ll at least afford you the charity required for you to fix yourself.
There is no point in bothering with conjecture regarding the bans. They happened, its documented, any one can look it up. It doesn’t help your following arguments to simply lie about a reality people can easily go reference for themselves, if they didn’t live the experience themselves, as many of us have. A conjecture rooted in the same cynicism that cost us the election.
Now as before, your cynical misrepresentation of the arguments which were made also works against you. We argued that without replacing Biden, we’d lose the election. And we had the same claims you are levying, here, now, levied against us them. That we were secret Trump supporters. That we were the ones costing the Democrats the election. And then, as it does, the truth of the matter has a way of finding itself out. And we who stayed focus on an accurate and valid criticisms we’re proven right. In-spite of this, and this is the true cost of cynicism, you continued to reject the analysis and criticism of those who got it right. Instead of showing grace and changing, yours doubled down on your wrongness, when even the beltway insiders had the humility to recognize how wrong they’d been. No. No instead you embraced the worst instinct: to double down on the cynicism. Harris needed to pivot away from Biden’s policies and political techniques to come back in the extra innings she was afforded. But no. The cynics won the side-line arguments on how to handle the extra time we got on the clock (and let us not forget, these same cynics were the ones arguing against replacing Biden), and we all suffer because.
We should listen to the people who got it right, to begin with, and who stayed right the whole time. We should ignore those who are guided by cynicism and fear. Sacrificing your values for billionaire donations isn’t just morally abhorrent: Its also bad strategy.
There is no point in bothering with conjecture regarding the bans. They happened, its documented, any one can look it up.
Can you look them up, and show them to me? I came close to digging through the modlog myself, to prove that the number of times in Dec 2023 / Jan 2024 that someone was banned for posting a poll showing Biden behind was 0.
We argued that without replacing Biden, we’d lose the election.
I said that with replacing Biden, we’d lose the election, because the exact same arguments that applied to Biden would get applied to Harris, plus some new ones, and all the forces that marshaled a variety of bad-faith bullshit against Biden would start to do the same against Harris, and people in this country literally can’t tell up from down when it comes to the election. And, in the election, that’s what happened.
A lot of what you’re saying happened also, yes. I’m genuinely confused about how you’re accusing me of being cynical about it or telling the Democrats to be more right wing. What statements did I make that led you to think that?
I said that with replacing Biden, we’d lose the election, because the exact same arguments that applied to Biden would get applied to Harris, plus some new ones,
Are you genuinely, seriously, trying to pretend that Joe “We beat Medicare” Biden was the better candidate to beat Trump? Bruh.
This absolute baldfaced refusal to accept reality from Democrat loyalists up and down the party structure, makes the whole party look unserious. Team sports, ‘my guy can do no wrong’ horseshit that they also see from the MAGAs, but team red talks game about inflation and the economy - and isn’t the incumbent seen as responsible for it.
Are you genuinely, seriously, trying to pretend that Joe “We beat Medicare” Biden was the better candidate to beat Trump? Bruh.
What? No, not even slightly. I’m saying that the people who are extensively hand-wringing about how these specific Democratic candidates fucked everything up, should be sparing at least one or two words for thirty years of Democratic fuckery laying the groundwork, the media pretending that Trump was a controversial but ultimately capable businessman who would fix the economy that was hurting them so badly, and any particular thing the Democrats did wrong was justification for having a multi-week freakout, and also the fact that most Americans get their political news from TikTok and Facebook if they get it at all.
Biden was old as fuck and it was a massive problem, even before the debate. I’m saying that none of the most serious problems got solved when he was replaced. And look… they didn’t.
Can you look them up, and show them to me? I came close to digging through the modlog myself, to prove that the number of times in Dec 2023 / Jan 2024 that someone was banned for posting a poll showing Biden behind was 0.
Yes and no. Yes I can, in that I’ve built out at least some of the tools to do so. I can’t in that I’m still at work today and haven’t returned to that project in quite a while.
I mean any one could go find some examples from memory that they experienced. I could dig far enough into my comment history to find them. In-fact I was digging through some banned community members and found some examples just the other day.
What I’m doing is far, far larger in scope. I’m not trying to find one instance, I’m trying to find all of them. I’m also interested in correlating that to “shifts in the overall narrative” to the sub. And I’m trying to do this across several prominent subs. And I’m not doing this in an adhoc way. When I have results they’ll be publishable.
I’ve built some of the more important tools already which allow me to pull the entire comment history of a user and perform significant sentiment analysis, key phrase extraction, etc… but some aspects aren’t reliable enough yet to be completely useful.
(scroll to the bottom, then scroll up instead of starting at the top)
The first analysis is a “trolling/ not trolling” analysis. Then its a frequency analysis. I used squid because of their preposterous number of comments. Some weeks they were commenting almost ever 3 minutes for hours on end.
If life we’re simpler I’d be further along on this project, but alas, the bills. They do not pay themselves. And its a hobby thing I’m not getting paid for, so its the last to get access to my time.
Alternate realities, certainly unlike not making a PR at GitHub, rather than unhinged accusations that spent over an hour doubling, tripling, quintupling down for a couple of hours…
Because instead of addressing anything at all about what I said, they said more or less “but you’re the person that said (totally unrelated thing) which I don’t agree with therefore you’re unhinged.”
You attacked me on some totally unrelated topic, instead of addressing anything I said about this topic.
If you disagreed with me about whether or not it’s totally cool and normal for Lemmy to send people’s admin passwords back to the mothership, you could weigh in over on that topic back when we were talking about that (and I’m pretty sure you did). It’s all good, the issue is fixed now whether or not it was an honest mistake in the code, and we all had our say on it.
Now all of a sudden we’re talking about some totally different issue, and whether or not anyone in power on Lemmy was “suppressing” or “banning” criticism of the Democrats during the run-up to the election (they were not) is left on the table, forgotten.
Here’s more explanation if you need it, with some examples of how attacking past unrelated arguments or issues can be a good example of using ad hominem to deflect from anything about the issue currently under discussion:
When someone uses an ad hominem fallacy, what’s going on inside their head? Often, this tactic is a defense mechanism. People tend to resort to ad hominem when they feel backed into a corner or threatened in some way.
Instead of tackling the issue or the argument being discussed, it’s easier—and emotionally safer—to attack the person making the argument. This is often an unconscious response fueled by cognitive biases like the “confirmation bias,” which makes us more likely to believe things that align with our existing opinions.
Launching an ad hominem attack, on the other hand, is quick and easy. It’s a low-effort way to feel like you’re winning an argument, even if you’re not actually engaging with the issue at hand. It’s a psychological shortcut that undermines rational discussion.
This is why I always regret it when I go to lemmy.world lol.
I mean, they lost. And more than just the election. They lost the battle for ideological control of how to do politics; of how to win elections, which was always the premise that justified their reason for being: Their loss is existential.
The core of their argument was that their cynicism was required to win elections. That we had to sacrifice our values, for whatever reason, to be able to “win” the election. To reiterate what our criticisms. Originally, it was with Biden. That without a serious pivot on Gaza and to right wing “enlightened centrism” that had guided his path to that point, he would lose the election. The later criticism was with Harris, and basically identical: That without pivoting and focusing on the issues the base was concerned with, that she would lose the election.
@Phillip_The_Bucket is demonstrating the same cynicism in this thread that lost the election for all of us in his fraudulent interpretation of our critique. The argument wasn’t that Biden or Harris should lose. We we’re point out that they were losing, and at least some of us where arguing what they needed to do to win. If you were to point out the obvious fact that Biden was polling, somehow below DJT, in Dec 2023/Jan 2024, you would get down voted all to hell, if not outright banned. You would get called a bot. Or an NPC. Or an russian operative. Or any other number of slurs. I presented a scientific analysis showing that it was statistically impossible for Biden to turn things around in March of 2024. It was removed as misinformation and I received a ban for it. This isn’t conjecture. Its all documented. Ask @Return2Ozma some of the names they’ve been called and insults they’ve had to suffer for simply posting articles that actually reflect reality.
They were wrong to begin with, insisted on staying committed to something that they knew was both a moral and tactical disaster, they were wrong after Biden dropped out, they were wrong up until the day of the election, and they’ve been wrong since. Alternatively, the exact same critiques we’ve been levying for years now have become the mainstream interpretation of past events. And now, with Mandami’s victory we’re showing something even more powerful. That there is real power in doing the right thing and speaking ones truth. And thats simply not possible for those whose politics is based on the false validation cynicism offers.
What i ask myself in all of this is, whether the “sacrifice” of values wasn’t genuine. Because if they are willing to compromise on genocide and ethnic cleansing, the question is how much of these values were there to begin with.
And subsequently, if they are somehow “okay” with brown people being mass murdered abroad, how should anyone including these people themselves believe that they would do anything substantial to human rights violations at home. And lo and behold they do very little about it.
Your core point here is actually something that deserves a little more of a response than I feel like typing up here. I’ll make a post in some “political discussion” community and maybe send you a note about it, because how we make forward progress and deal with the brokenness of the Democratic party is obviously a pretty important topic that is highly relevant to this story.
I just want to deal with this stuff a little, since you did try to tag me:
The core of their argument was that their cynicism was required to win elections. That we had to sacrifice our values, for whatever reason, to be able to “win” the election. To reiterate what our criticisms. Originally, it was with Biden. That without a serious pivot on Gaza and to right wing “enlightened centrism” that had guided his path to that point, he would lose the election. The later criticism was with Harris, and basically identical: That without pivoting and focusing on the issues the base was concerned with, that she would lose the election.
That wasn’t the core of my argument. The core of my argument was that, with the exception of Gaza, Biden already embodied every one of the values you’re claiming you weren’t willing to sacrifice: On income inequality, on climate change, on corporate corruption, on policing, on basically everything, he was the best leader we’d had in decades, someone who actually made some small amount of forward progress after, which is especially impressive given that he had to deal with a mostly-dogshit Democratic congress to try to get it all done with, and letting Trump win the next election just to spite the Democrats for not being “left enough” (which, yes, they are not) because of a mostly fantastical conception of what Biden even did in the first place, was going to lead to (1) a total cessation of any forward progress, in or out of politics (2) horrors that would have been hard to conceive of, some small number of which are coming true even now (before he turned the deportation machine into the third largest military in the world).
It was based on grabbing quotes and pretending they corresponded to policy, assembling misleading little talking-points, and outright lying. And, of course, pointing to Gaza. That was one thing that the anti-Biden crew had 100% in the bag without needing to misconstrue a damn thing. It was a horror, a stain on the world, and he was arming the whole thing the whole time through. So what could anyone say to defend it? Fair enough. And then, Kamala Harris came along, who hadn’t done any of that, and y’all blamed her for it anyway, and went back into this wild fantasy-land where the only answer to save Palestine was to let Trump win.
Anyway, now we’re in the timeline we’re in. I really hope that it is the catalyst for something better, the kind of popular revolution and massive upset to our politics that’s always been what we need, and not too many people have to die in the meantime to make that happen. I honestly don’t even really know what the answer is, in terms of finally making the American government a decent operation that can provide for its people some kind of decent life and future. I hope it happens before the whole world explodes.
I also know that you’re lying about what “we” said before the election, what Biden’s record was before the election, what the mods did before the election (I guarantee you you cannot find stuff in the modlog where someone was banned for posting a poll that showed Biden behind or something), what “our” (my at least) goals are in all of this, and all the rest of it. You’re trying to reframe it all in this innocent way by retconning that something totally different happened than what happened. So, that makes me suspicious of your motives, and of the honesty of all the constructive criticism you’re now trying to offer, yes.
Let’s hope Cuomo fucks things up for the establishment, let’s hope Mamdani gets somewhere and his message keeps spreading, with or without the help of the current people in power. Hopefully we can agree on that, at least.
I also know that you’re lying about what “we” said before the election, what Biden’s record was before the election, what the mods did before the election (I guarantee you you cannot find stuff in the modlog where someone was banned for posting a poll that showed Biden behind or something), what “our” (my at least) goals are in all of this, and all the rest of it.
Jokes on you, I’ve spent almost two years developing tooling to do specifically this because lemmy still lacks an adequate external API. Unfortunately, I’m not independently wealthy and I do have a day job and haven’t made much progress in a few months, but I am planning on releasing it as a public tool when I can get around to it. And considering I’ve finally found the line giving me shit at my day job, I’m going to have to keep it short.
I specifically am building it to document the relationship between how moderation operates as a power structure and structures narratives of the community. Its a work in progress but I’ve shared components of it with others (SatansMaggotyCumFart, for one, who wanted me to use it to do an investigation of UniversalMonk).
The issue is broad and isn’t able to be contained to just one sub, so its going to have to span many subs, but effectively I’m testing how moderation functions to support some narratives and inhibit others.
I would appreciate if you repost this to maybe one of the debate subs that I think someone started. Its probably better to house the discussion there then to create an endless series of responses.
I specifically am building it to document the relationship between how moderation operates as a power structure and structures narratives of the community. Its a work in progress but I’ve shared components of it with others (SatansMaggotyCumFart, for one, who wanted me to use it to do an investigation of UniversalMonk).
I think this is 100% an excellent idea. I am firmly convinced that you’ll find it works the opposite of the way you’re saying it does here (you’ll find that there are certain types of topics where flamewars develop, and some mods whose names aren’t really commonly spoken tend to sanction participants on one and only one side of the flamewar, more or less, the “pro-Democrat” side.) But I’d be happy to wait and see what the data on it is. Who knows, maybe anyone who spoke poorly of Biden was getting banned and it happened all the time but you really do need to build a whole analysis tool to give me even a single example.
I would appreciate if you repost this to maybe one of the debate subs that I think someone started. Its probably better to house the discussion there then to create an endless series of responses.
Agreed. Like I said, aside from all the backbiting about who said what before the election and whose fault it all is, there is actually a useful conversation to be had about what can even happen in American politics that’s good right now.
You’re missing the point. Vote Blue No Matter Who means that competitors are supposed to step aside after a primary and support the winning candidate. In practice, this means they expect the losing progressive candidate to suck it up and support the establishment democrat. Now that a progressive has won the primary, the establishment democrat is refusing to step aside.
So yes, he technically won’t have a D next to his name, but it is well understood that he is an arm of the political machine that is refusing to respect the will of the voters.
The point is its “vote blue no matter who” until it’s against the pro-business centrists in the Democratic party, and then it’s “fuck you, we’ll run independent and split the vote to let a Republican win!” because they only say that it’s important to not let perfect be the enemy of good when it comes to corrupt fuckheads who don’t give a single iota of a shit about working class people. They’re happy to drop the facade when someone like Mamdani gets in, they’d rather a Republican win than someone with real plans for change.
To be fair: The Democratic Party isn’t a viable political engine for positive social change or a working-class agenda. If Cuomo wins it will be yet another example of how untrustworthy, hypocritical, and vapid Blue No Matter Who voting habits are.
Now it’s time to hammer home the fact that it’s liberals’ turn to “vote blue no matter who.”
Remember when mods coordinated to ban any criticism of BNMW / Blue Maga from all the major subs during 2024? How they the cultivated a community of briggading, sea-lioning, etc… to try and suppress any criticism of an approach to politics that was obviously going to hand the country to Trump?
My ass. I wish the mods had banned obviously disingenuous “let’s let Trump win to make a point, what’s the difference anyway” made-up critique that blamed Kamala Harris for Gaza and inflation, under a tissue-thin pretense of “I just care about the country sooooooooooooooooooooo much that I’m giving well informed constructive criticism.” Instead we had to just yell at y’all about it in the comments, which since there were hundreds of posts and comments every single day with that viewpoint was always a losing battle. Even trolling of crayon-quality transparency of the UniversalMonk variety was explicitly allowed by the mods, and people who objected to it too strongly got banned for it.
The whining about how you’re not allowed to get your message out, which is constantly broadcasted on every channel where you’re claiming you’re being silenced, is just part and parcel of the alternate reality you’re having a good bit of success in constructing. MAGA does it too, it’s part of the package.
You do understand that your cynical lying about the past is why your camp is losing the argument? I mean, I don’t dislike you, at least not personally, and and even if I have to drag you by the hair onto the right side of history, I’ll at least afford you the charity required for you to fix yourself.
There is no point in bothering with conjecture regarding the bans. They happened, its documented, any one can look it up. It doesn’t help your following arguments to simply lie about a reality people can easily go reference for themselves, if they didn’t live the experience themselves, as many of us have. A conjecture rooted in the same cynicism that cost us the election.
Now as before, your cynical misrepresentation of the arguments which were made also works against you. We argued that without replacing Biden, we’d lose the election. And we had the same claims you are levying, here, now, levied against us them. That we were secret Trump supporters. That we were the ones costing the Democrats the election. And then, as it does, the truth of the matter has a way of finding itself out. And we who stayed focus on an accurate and valid criticisms we’re proven right. In-spite of this, and this is the true cost of cynicism, you continued to reject the analysis and criticism of those who got it right. Instead of showing grace and changing, yours doubled down on your wrongness, when even the beltway insiders had the humility to recognize how wrong they’d been. No. No instead you embraced the worst instinct: to double down on the cynicism. Harris needed to pivot away from Biden’s policies and political techniques to come back in the extra innings she was afforded. But no. The cynics won the side-line arguments on how to handle the extra time we got on the clock (and let us not forget, these same cynics were the ones arguing against replacing Biden), and we all suffer because.
We should listen to the people who got it right, to begin with, and who stayed right the whole time. We should ignore those who are guided by cynicism and fear. Sacrificing your values for billionaire donations isn’t just morally abhorrent: Its also bad strategy.
Can you look them up, and show them to me? I came close to digging through the modlog myself, to prove that the number of times in Dec 2023 / Jan 2024 that someone was banned for posting a poll showing Biden behind was 0.
I said that with replacing Biden, we’d lose the election, because the exact same arguments that applied to Biden would get applied to Harris, plus some new ones, and all the forces that marshaled a variety of bad-faith bullshit against Biden would start to do the same against Harris, and people in this country literally can’t tell up from down when it comes to the election. And, in the election, that’s what happened.
A lot of what you’re saying happened also, yes. I’m genuinely confused about how you’re accusing me of being cynical about it or telling the Democrats to be more right wing. What statements did I make that led you to think that?
Are you genuinely, seriously, trying to pretend that Joe “We beat Medicare” Biden was the better candidate to beat Trump? Bruh.
This absolute baldfaced refusal to accept reality from Democrat loyalists up and down the party structure, makes the whole party look unserious. Team sports, ‘my guy can do no wrong’ horseshit that they also see from the MAGAs, but team red talks game about inflation and the economy - and isn’t the incumbent seen as responsible for it.
What? No, not even slightly. I’m saying that the people who are extensively hand-wringing about how these specific Democratic candidates fucked everything up, should be sparing at least one or two words for thirty years of Democratic fuckery laying the groundwork, the media pretending that Trump was a controversial but ultimately capable businessman who would fix the economy that was hurting them so badly, and any particular thing the Democrats did wrong was justification for having a multi-week freakout, and also the fact that most Americans get their political news from TikTok and Facebook if they get it at all.
Biden was old as fuck and it was a massive problem, even before the debate. I’m saying that none of the most serious problems got solved when he was replaced. And look… they didn’t.
Yes and no. Yes I can, in that I’ve built out at least some of the tools to do so. I can’t in that I’m still at work today and haven’t returned to that project in quite a while.
So anyone can look it up, but in order to look it up, you’d have to build some tools and it’s a whole project?
Find a particular modlog entry from last year. See how long it takes.
I mean any one could go find some examples from memory that they experienced. I could dig far enough into my comment history to find them. In-fact I was digging through some banned community members and found some examples just the other day.
What I’m doing is far, far larger in scope. I’m not trying to find one instance, I’m trying to find all of them. I’m also interested in correlating that to “shifts in the overall narrative” to the sub. And I’m trying to do this across several prominent subs. And I’m not doing this in an adhoc way. When I have results they’ll be publishable.
I’ve built some of the more important tools already which allow me to pull the entire comment history of a user and perform significant sentiment analysis, key phrase extraction, etc… but some aspects aren’t reliable enough yet to be completely useful.
This is some example output using flyingsqids data: https://tmpweb.net/jS19ePfgNdz0/
(scroll to the bottom, then scroll up instead of starting at the top)
The first analysis is a “trolling/ not trolling” analysis. Then its a frequency analysis. I used squid because of their preposterous number of comments. Some weeks they were commenting almost ever 3 minutes for hours on end.
If life we’re simpler I’d be further along on this project, but alas, the bills. They do not pay themselves. And its a hobby thing I’m not getting paid for, so its the last to get access to my time.
Could you find some examples from memory that you experienced, for me?
I feel like we keep having the same conversation here.
Alternate realities, certainly unlike not making a PR at GitHub, rather than unhinged accusations that spent over an hour doubling, tripling, quintupling down for a couple of hours…
Can you explain how this fallacy applies? Also, dick move posting pictures of text without a transcript.
Because instead of addressing anything at all about what I said, they said more or less “but you’re the person that said (totally unrelated thing) which I don’t agree with therefore you’re unhinged.”
Oh dear, he’s going down the list of fallacies, after calling us disingenuous, when I clearly attacked unhinged posts.
You attacked me on some totally unrelated topic, instead of addressing anything I said about this topic.
If you disagreed with me about whether or not it’s totally cool and normal for Lemmy to send people’s admin passwords back to the mothership, you could weigh in over on that topic back when we were talking about that (and I’m pretty sure you did). It’s all good, the issue is fixed now whether or not it was an honest mistake in the code, and we all had our say on it.
Now all of a sudden we’re talking about some totally different issue, and whether or not anyone in power on Lemmy was “suppressing” or “banning” criticism of the Democrats during the run-up to the election (they were not) is left on the table, forgotten.
Here’s more explanation if you need it, with some examples of how attacking past unrelated arguments or issues can be a good example of using ad hominem to deflect from anything about the issue currently under discussion:
https://practicalpie.com/ad-hominem-fallacy/
This is why I always regret it when I go to lemmy.world lol.
Yes, and they’ve apparently decided to abandon this community in order to wall themselves off from we BoTh SiDeS-ers.
I mean, they lost. And more than just the election. They lost the battle for ideological control of how to do politics; of how to win elections, which was always the premise that justified their reason for being: Their loss is existential.
The core of their argument was that their cynicism was required to win elections. That we had to sacrifice our values, for whatever reason, to be able to “win” the election. To reiterate what our criticisms. Originally, it was with Biden. That without a serious pivot on Gaza and to right wing “enlightened centrism” that had guided his path to that point, he would lose the election. The later criticism was with Harris, and basically identical: That without pivoting and focusing on the issues the base was concerned with, that she would lose the election.
@Phillip_The_Bucket is demonstrating the same cynicism in this thread that lost the election for all of us in his fraudulent interpretation of our critique. The argument wasn’t that Biden or Harris should lose. We we’re point out that they were losing, and at least some of us where arguing what they needed to do to win. If you were to point out the obvious fact that Biden was polling, somehow below DJT, in Dec 2023/Jan 2024, you would get down voted all to hell, if not outright banned. You would get called a bot. Or an NPC. Or an russian operative. Or any other number of slurs. I presented a scientific analysis showing that it was statistically impossible for Biden to turn things around in March of 2024. It was removed as misinformation and I received a ban for it. This isn’t conjecture. Its all documented. Ask @Return2Ozma some of the names they’ve been called and insults they’ve had to suffer for simply posting articles that actually reflect reality.
They were wrong to begin with, insisted on staying committed to something that they knew was both a moral and tactical disaster, they were wrong after Biden dropped out, they were wrong up until the day of the election, and they’ve been wrong since. Alternatively, the exact same critiques we’ve been levying for years now have become the mainstream interpretation of past events. And now, with Mandami’s victory we’re showing something even more powerful. That there is real power in doing the right thing and speaking ones truth. And thats simply not possible for those whose politics is based on the false validation cynicism offers.
What i ask myself in all of this is, whether the “sacrifice” of values wasn’t genuine. Because if they are willing to compromise on genocide and ethnic cleansing, the question is how much of these values were there to begin with.
And subsequently, if they are somehow “okay” with brown people being mass murdered abroad, how should anyone including these people themselves believe that they would do anything substantial to human rights violations at home. And lo and behold they do very little about it.
Oh they’re not. They remain steadfast in their support for both.
Your core point here is actually something that deserves a little more of a response than I feel like typing up here. I’ll make a post in some “political discussion” community and maybe send you a note about it, because how we make forward progress and deal with the brokenness of the Democratic party is obviously a pretty important topic that is highly relevant to this story.
I just want to deal with this stuff a little, since you did try to tag me:
That wasn’t the core of my argument. The core of my argument was that, with the exception of Gaza, Biden already embodied every one of the values you’re claiming you weren’t willing to sacrifice: On income inequality, on climate change, on corporate corruption, on policing, on basically everything, he was the best leader we’d had in decades, someone who actually made some small amount of forward progress after, which is especially impressive given that he had to deal with a mostly-dogshit Democratic congress to try to get it all done with, and letting Trump win the next election just to spite the Democrats for not being “left enough” (which, yes, they are not) because of a mostly fantastical conception of what Biden even did in the first place, was going to lead to (1) a total cessation of any forward progress, in or out of politics (2) horrors that would have been hard to conceive of, some small number of which are coming true even now (before he turned the deportation machine into the third largest military in the world).
It was based on grabbing quotes and pretending they corresponded to policy, assembling misleading little talking-points, and outright lying. And, of course, pointing to Gaza. That was one thing that the anti-Biden crew had 100% in the bag without needing to misconstrue a damn thing. It was a horror, a stain on the world, and he was arming the whole thing the whole time through. So what could anyone say to defend it? Fair enough. And then, Kamala Harris came along, who hadn’t done any of that, and y’all blamed her for it anyway, and went back into this wild fantasy-land where the only answer to save Palestine was to let Trump win.
Anyway, now we’re in the timeline we’re in. I really hope that it is the catalyst for something better, the kind of popular revolution and massive upset to our politics that’s always been what we need, and not too many people have to die in the meantime to make that happen. I honestly don’t even really know what the answer is, in terms of finally making the American government a decent operation that can provide for its people some kind of decent life and future. I hope it happens before the whole world explodes.
I also know that you’re lying about what “we” said before the election, what Biden’s record was before the election, what the mods did before the election (I guarantee you you cannot find stuff in the modlog where someone was banned for posting a poll that showed Biden behind or something), what “our” (my at least) goals are in all of this, and all the rest of it. You’re trying to reframe it all in this innocent way by retconning that something totally different happened than what happened. So, that makes me suspicious of your motives, and of the honesty of all the constructive criticism you’re now trying to offer, yes.
Let’s hope Cuomo fucks things up for the establishment, let’s hope Mamdani gets somewhere and his message keeps spreading, with or without the help of the current people in power. Hopefully we can agree on that, at least.
Jokes on you, I’ve spent almost two years developing tooling to do specifically this because lemmy still lacks an adequate external API. Unfortunately, I’m not independently wealthy and I do have a day job and haven’t made much progress in a few months, but I am planning on releasing it as a public tool when I can get around to it. And considering I’ve finally found the line giving me shit at my day job, I’m going to have to keep it short.
I specifically am building it to document the relationship between how moderation operates as a power structure and structures narratives of the community. Its a work in progress but I’ve shared components of it with others (SatansMaggotyCumFart, for one, who wanted me to use it to do an investigation of UniversalMonk).
The issue is broad and isn’t able to be contained to just one sub, so its going to have to span many subs, but effectively I’m testing how moderation functions to support some narratives and inhibit others.
I would appreciate if you repost this to maybe one of the debate subs that I think someone started. Its probably better to house the discussion there then to create an endless series of responses.
I think this is 100% an excellent idea. I am firmly convinced that you’ll find it works the opposite of the way you’re saying it does here (you’ll find that there are certain types of topics where flamewars develop, and some mods whose names aren’t really commonly spoken tend to sanction participants on one and only one side of the flamewar, more or less, the “pro-Democrat” side.) But I’d be happy to wait and see what the data on it is. Who knows, maybe anyone who spoke poorly of Biden was getting banned and it happened all the time but you really do need to build a whole analysis tool to give me even a single example.
Agreed. Like I said, aside from all the backbiting about who said what before the election and whose fault it all is, there is actually a useful conversation to be had about what can even happen in American politics that’s good right now.
Wouldn’t Cuomo not have the (D) next to his name this time?
You’re missing the point. Vote Blue No Matter Who means that competitors are supposed to step aside after a primary and support the winning candidate. In practice, this means they expect the losing progressive candidate to suck it up and support the establishment democrat. Now that a progressive has won the primary, the establishment democrat is refusing to step aside.
So yes, he technically won’t have a D next to his name, but it is well understood that he is an arm of the political machine that is refusing to respect the will of the voters.
Come on, y’all. If we all believe he’s a dick, Cuomo can still have his D and eat it, too!
The point is its “vote blue no matter who” until it’s against the pro-business centrists in the Democratic party, and then it’s “fuck you, we’ll run independent and split the vote to let a Republican win!” because they only say that it’s important to not let perfect be the enemy of good when it comes to corrupt fuckheads who don’t give a single iota of a shit about working class people. They’re happy to drop the facade when someone like Mamdani gets in, they’d rather a Republican win than someone with real plans for change.
What?
How would voting I be voting blue?
Why are people up voting that? It makes zero sense…
It isn’t, but since centrists didn’t get their very first choice, they’re fine with it now.
Cuomo is the one violating the VBNMW
He should hold his nose and vote for the nominee.