In an unexpected mask off “secure” email and VPN provider Proton took the stance of siding with the fascist MAGA Reps. Proton’s services are no option for me and many others any longer. Let’s collect and discuss alternatives (E2E encrypted email and VPN) here 🔐👇
Always try to provide:
-Server location (jurisdiction)
-Governance
-Integrity/trustworthiness/transparency
-User experience/ease of use (grade 1 to 10, lets take Proton as a benchmark with an 8)
-Pricing and links
If you know alternative setups, feel free to share, too.
#ProtonExodus
Background: https://lemmy.ca/comment/13913116
Edit:typo
Sigh.
Goddammit. I’m so fucking tired.
This is how they win.
Like zombies, slow and steady, dumb and hungry
Perfect
Be tired with Tuta!
Am I the only that don’t see this the same way as the rest? I am in way way endorsing or supporting MAGA, but they did take action against big tech (though for reasons of retribution) and I see Proton only acknowledging a good person being designated to lead the next antitrust efforts, apparently with a good track record.
Proton also acknowledges Lina Kahn who has done a great job, nominated under Joe Biden.
Ultimately, I feel like from a perspective of Proton, any win against Big Tech, is a good win, and I can’t disagree.
There is a longer discussion to be had around how the dems were supported by oligarchs and I think that’s what Proton is referring to, they decided to turn a blind eye under the Obama administration for instance. Bernie Sanders goes to lengths about this in this interview, illuminating: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MzkgWDCucNY
So all in all, maga sucks, new pick probably good, and in my view, proton not actually endorsing maga/trump but just acknowledging a good pick.
Did I miss something?
The main part of the message that pissed me off was the idea that GOP sides with the “little guy”. First, it’s demonstrably false. Second, he is a tech CEO. He wouldn’t recognise a little guy before his security crew has time to forcibly remove him.
yes, that’s a sane approach
Truly unhinged that they decided to come out on this. Fellas, you are fucking Swiss why throw yourself under the bus for the US election
Because terrible people literally can’t help themselves. Wait for people to show you who they truly are, they will…
Phew! For a moment I thought you were talking about the steam compatibility thingy.
I thought they were talking about the elementary particle—I was afraid we’d have to find some other way of manifesting our physical existence.
Wow!
Of all companies, this is one I didn’t expect.
Damn.
the good news is this is a lesson to never trust any entity whose role in the world is to accumulate capital
What’s insane is that didn’t Proton just recently announce they were converting to a non-profit?
Yes, they did: https://proton.me/blog/proton-non-profit-foundation
Why would this be unexpected?
Proton already handed over the IP of a climate protester to authorities several years ago, while boasting that they had a no log policy.
https://therecord.media/protonmail-forced-to-collect-an-activists-ip-address-in-police-investigation
Every time, in the past few years, that I bring this up, everyone just acts like I’m setting an impossible standard and no alternative exists.
Proton has been shady for years.
“Proton? Why the fuck would he be mad at a WINE fork…?”
“… OH THE MAIL-”Remember when businesses stayed the fuck out of politics so they didn’t alienate their customers because they like money? Pepperidge Farms remembers.
The CEO “apologized” this morning (after being duly chastised, I’m sure):
Hi all, last night, a post from last year from my personal X account suddenly became a topic of discussion here on Reddit. I want to share a few thoughts on this to provide clarity to the community on what is Proton’s policy on politics going forward.
First, while the X post was not intended to be a political statement, I can understand how it can be interpreted as such, and it therefore should not have been made. While we will not prohibit all employees from expressing personal political opinions publicly, it is something I will personally avoid in the future. I lean left on some issues, and right on other issues, but it doesn’t serve our mission to publicly debate this. It should be obvious, but I will say that it is a false equivalence to say that agreeing with Republicans on one specific issue (antitrust enforcement to protect small companies) is equal to endorsing the entire Republican party platform.
Second, officially Proton must always be politically neutral, and while we may share facts and analysis, our policy going forward will be to share no opinions of a political nature. The line between facts, analysis, and opinions can be blurry at times, but we will seek to better clarify this over time through your feedback and input.
The exception to these rules is on the topics of privacy, security, and freedom. These are necessarily political topics, where influencing public policy to defend these values, often requires engaging politically.
The operations of Proton have always reflected our neutrality. For example, recently we refused pressure to deplatform both Palestinian student groups and Zionist student groups, not because we necessarily agreed with their views, but because we believe more strongly in their right to have their own views.
It is also a legal guarantee under Swiss law, which explicitly prohibits us from assisting foreign governments or agencies, and allows us no discretion to show favoritism as Swiss law and Swiss courts have the final say.
The promise we make is that no matter your politics, you will always be welcome at Proton (subject of course to adherence to our terms and conditions). When it comes to defending your right to privacy, Proton will show no favoritism or bias, and will unconditionally defend it irrespective of the opinions you may hold.
This is because both Proton as a company, and Proton as a community, is highly diverse, with people that hold a wide range of opinions and perspectives. It’s important that we not lose sight of nuance. Agreeing/disagreeing with somebody on one point, rarely means you agree/disagree with them on every other point.
I would like to believe that as a community there is more that unites us than divides us, and that privacy and freedom are universal values that we can all agree upon. This continues to be the mission of the non-profit Proton Foundation, and we will strive to carry it out as neutrally as possible.
Going forward, I will be posting via u/andy1011000. Thank you for your feedback and inputs so far, and we look forward to continuing the conversation.
Original post: https://www.reddit.com/r/ProtonMail/comments/1i2nz9v/on_politics_and_proton_a_message_from_andy/
Am I being paranoid when I notice that the binary at the end of his username translates to 88?
Mullvad is supposed to be a safe and secure VPN.
Unfortunately not a mail or storage provider.
If this wasn’t enough of a wakeupcall to not put all the eggs in one basket then what is? Companies are literally doing this to lock you into their service so it’s harder to switch since you then have to find X new services instead of just one.
Better go with one that’d specialized for each service you need…
deleted by creator
I’ve said it in another thread: German users should consider posteo as a green, safe, and affordable (1€/M) alternative. https://posteo.de/de
Maybe not the contribution that you’re looking for, but going to tell you this story regardless.
I am Swiss, and am a former Department of Foreign Affairs (FDFA / EDA) employee. My colleagues and I had organized an evening on cybersecurity, where we showcase what Switzerland has to offer. I invited stakeholders such as:
- Dreamlab (really cool company, should look them up if you don’t know of them)
- NCSC (Swiss National Cyber Security Center)
- Some Swiss cyber regulator; and
- Proton
Firstly, when speaking to a delegate of one of the above listed (don’t feel comfortably sharing publicly which one), he ushered a statement; upon me saying I’m a huge Proton fan and subscribed to all services - “they are lying to your faces”.
I was curious, so I spoke with the regulators and NCSC delegates, they said that Proton has been involved in a handful of leaks - some that were made public, some behind the scenes.
When I spoke to Andy, having told him that I grew up in Canada, I asked him what his plan was for North America. His response: “I will gladly take their money, but never open up shop there - too many national security departments that come knocking on the door”.
Now I see that (on the Proton page), that they are looking for a few US based positions for Marketing and Growth - going against what we discussed a few years back. In all honesty, I still have a Plus subscription with them, but beginning to questions a lot more things regarding security and ethics at Proton. Guess I’ll just self-host in the future. Trust no one but yourself with your personal data.
OK I think I will move to Posteo. Great security, privacy focussed, servers in Germany, running with 100% renewable energy. Prices are ok, too. Ticks all boxes.
If a car company in Germany complemented Hitler on his paintings, would it be still fine to buy their cars? And what if they were a really great car company and only mentioned how cool Hitler’s paintings were and nothing else?
I sort of feel like if I am cool with Proton’s statement, then I also am cool with trans people and Latino people and Gazan people being treated poorly, and I’m not actually cool with that.
It’s unfortunate, because despite Proton not accepting XMR and logging IPs when they promised they wouldn’t and doing other questionable practices, they have a lot of great services. But now, it’s like if I’m using their services, I’m sort of spitting on the grave of every trans person who ended their life out of shame, spitting on the grave of every dead Gazan who simply didn’t want to die, and being disrespectful to all the cool Latinos out there who have been degraded simply out of racism.
:-(
Unlike a car which is bought once and is mostly outside of vendor control once you have it, Proton mail is a service that requires continuous trust in the company since they offer a service. This means I no longer trust Proton as much, which makes me much less inclined to use their services.
I will continue to use Proton and their services, not because I support or endorse any political decisions from the CEO/board members (and I don’t), but because they provide open source, secure, and private software that I love.
This is no different than arguing about using GrapheneOS based on the behavior of the maintainers.
Oh no… I use Graphene… what’s the deal with the maintainers?
This video seemed to have been the start of an anti-GrapheneOS movement. I won’t get into details, because it’s been explained to death, but it’s here for your convenience.
I use and love GrapheneOS as well.
Thanks for the video, much appreciated. Never paid much attention to the project beyond their website… and I’m glad that’s as far as I’ve gone lol
Don’t bother videos against GrapheneOS. The lead of GrapheneOS has autism and he lacks social skills. This creates endless loop of hate talk between some YouTubers and GrapheneOS.
As a technical project, GOS is far superior and it is the most secure OS on the planet right now. The lead of the GOS has developed hardened malloc and various other security solutions that is now baked into GrapheneOS. So I would ask people to enjoy the project rather than stimulating more fuss against the project.
Heads up: autism isn’t a defense, it’s a condition.
Misinformation. OP is advocating that you shoot yourself in the foot.
The CEO said something silly on Twitter which revealed either that (a) he shares an exceedingly banal opinion with literally half of America or (b) he’s not above a bit of preemptive sycophancy to advance his (positive) anti-trust agenda.
There’s nothing particularly scandalous in the offending tweet:
- Implying that the Democrats are now “the party of big business” is arguably true (and very boring)
- Implying that the Republicans now “stand for the little guys” is dumb but also arguably true, unfortunately - the working classes swung to Trump in the recent election while the Democrats are fast becoming a party of high-earning elites (which is why they lost)
- Saying that the antitrust actions began under Trump I is, well, true
Proton is not owned Zuck-like by its CEO. It’s controlled by a foundation with other stakeholders on the board, including the inventor of the Web himself. In its niche it is still by far the best option. Ditching it for a nebulous non-existent alternative because the CEO expressed a dumb and extremely commonplace opinion is just silly and self-defeating.
PS: to be clear, OP is peddling misinformation because it’s not true that “Proton took the stance” of anything. It’s the personal opinion of the CEO that’s at issue. It’s a major distinction. I find it disappointing that people interested in privacy would have such little respect for a private individual’s right to have their own thoughts.
PPS: to be extra clear, my comments are about the post above, not stuff that people are reading elsewhere. But the substance stands. See discussion for detail.
I largely agree with what you’re saying, except the official Proton Mastadon account doubled down on that personal opinion. That seems pretty clear that it’s endorsed not just by that one individual on the board.
Link to Mastodon thread: https://mastodon.social/@protonprivacy/113833073219145503
Archives in case they delete it:
https://web.archive.org/web/20250115165213/https://mastodon.social/@protonprivacy/113833073219145503
Text copy of their post:
Corporate capture of Dems is real. In 2022, we campaigned extensively in the US for anti-trust legislation.
Two bills were ready, with bipartisan support. Chuck Schumer (who coincidently has two daughters working as big tech lobbyists) refused to bring the bills for a vote.
At a 2024 event covering antitrust remedies, out of all the invited senators, just a single one showed up - JD Vance.
By working on the front lines of many policy issues, we have seen the shift between Dems and Republicans over the past decade first hand.
Dems had a choice between the progressive wing (Bernie Sanders, etc), versus corporate Dems, but in the end money won and constituents lost.
Until corporate Dems are thrown out, the reality is that Republicans remain more likely to tackle Big Tech abuses.
Looks like backing up the post was a good call.
This doesn’t seem bad? Its true dems embraced the corporate side. The republicans suck and are only going after tech until tech bows down to them (like zuck has been doing) but the post isn’t really outrageous or worse than the first tweet
Significant if true. But still. Proton has a great product and a lot of stored-up goodwill. I think the reasonable thing to do here is to wait and see, and to judge them on actions before words.
I’m not jumping ship yet and am waiting to see what, if anything, happens from here. Maybe it comes out that the same person has access to that official Mastadon account and echoed their opinion there… and maybe it comes out that his comments/actions are disavowed by the rest of the organization.
I’ll wait and see. But it’s not a great start.
Fair enough. But this whole drama is still completely substance-free. The air of US-style thought-policing bothers me.
I find it disappointing that people interested in privacy would have such little respect for a private individual’s right to have their own thoughts.
Well said, my friend.
I love how you’re claiming misinformation while posting misinformation. It’s not the CEO, it’s a board member. That said, the company also officially posted these ideas on their Bluesky account.
This isn’t a “CEO” expressing a belief, it’s the board, and now the official company line.
I’m not disagreeing with their post particularly on corporate dems, but this is a company and not a persons sole belief.
Also, if dems are the party of big business then why are all these big businesses donating to Trump? Does that just mean republicans are the party of even bigger business?
This is all over the place.
My comment concerns the post above. OP cites a tweet and states a falsehood about it. No, “Proton” did not “take the stance” of anything in that tweet. Yes, Andy Yen is the CEO. Yes, that tweet is in his name and not in the name of Proton. I was not responding to other things that you’ve seen elsewhere.
Now, as for those other things elsewhere, I stick by the substance of my point. Sure, it’s more of a problem that dumb things are being said in the name of Proton rather than just it’s CEO. But look at the detail of those things. There is nothing scandalous. People are getting their underwear in a twist about extremely common opinions being expressed on Twitter. Personally I don’t care if a CEO voted a different way to me, or even if a whole board did. This should not have any bearing on Proton’s product or what makes it better than others. This is just another typically American culture-war drama. It’s boring.
Not American, but there is this regarding the third point: https://www.reddit.com/r/ProtonMail/comments/1i1zjgn/comment/m7b1wib/
Any thoughts here?
To me this whole demonizing proton ceo thing seems a bit overblown. Sucking up is actually pathetic and funny
If you’ve got an argument, make it.
Well the reddit comment says completely opposite of what you said - that trump didn’t really increase / start with antitrust, but rather did the opposite.
Well it’s either true or it’s not. Did you bother looking it up to check?
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It isn’t misinformation.
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Someone like this board member being a traitor to his species isn’t covered by “opinion”. No normalizing nazis. It’s such a low bar. He couldn’t clear it.
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He blasted his treachery over the public airwaves. His privacy isn’t being violated.
This whole comment feels like an exercise in using all the best words to miss the point. We know, as does this probably-lying board member, that Republicans are only going to go more authoritarian, and the only reason they would pretend to care about big tech abuses is to grab the steering wheel from them to commit far worse abuses. No company that gets into bed with traitors is going to become the new center of my digital life.
Tuta for email, syncthing for photos bc I’m not self-hosting, mullvad for VPN.
Sorry but I won’t participate in this juvenile trivializing of the word “Nazi”. Yes, I know that’s become almost a meaningless slur at this point, but personally I just will not take seriously anybody who throws it around like this. Perhaps because I’m European. Perhaps because I studied history. It’s not serious.
It’s because you’re a centrist.
You say it like it’s an insult! Actually I usually vote green. And in Europe the greens are really greens, rather than just spoilers who help Bushes and Trumps into power.
Mate they’re mainstreaming fascist rhetoric. Over 60% of Republicans now believe in the Great Replacement theory aka White Genocide, which used to be a conspiracy theory on the fringes of white nationalist propaganda just about a decade ago.
I encourage you to not get hung up on symbolism and instead look to ideology and rhetoric.
Leaving aside the absurd and juvenile “Nazi” slur (“fascist” is less of a stretch), I disagree with your analysis. I think it’s exactly the opposite. I think it’s because mainstream politicians have refused to address the reasonable aspects of people’s concerns (about immigration, in particular), and because progressive activists have gone off the leash in their wild accusations of racism at the slightest contradiction of their opinions, that we’ve ended up in this situation of the far right getting into power all over the place.
Once again: I do not vote for these parties. Anyway, we are now completely offtopic so let’s leave it there.
So yes they’re fascist, but the progressives complained too much about racism, and therefore it’s fine to support the fascists?
IDK what to tell you but your political ideology is privileged garbage. You’re more scared of being called racist than of fascism. The kind of “yes ethnic cleansing but please no mean language” attitude. Please get a political education and your priorities straight.
With your insults and condescension, you’re just proving my point.
Yeah I never doubted you’d have a reason to dismiss being called out like that. Getting your feelings hurt invalidates everything else. I feel like I’m talking to myself from 10 years ago.
You don’t have to take it from me. If you’re a student of history, maybe start with Umberto Eco. He knew a thing or two about fascism, I’ve heard.
The biggest mistake we can make is to assume it can’t happen again.
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Implying that the Democrats are now “the party of big business” is arguably true (and very boring)
While true in some scenarios, in anti-trust Lina khan’s ftc has done significantly more than trump ever did. Biden keeping her over the protest of countless business execs and daily articles in the wall street journal on how she’s ruining America shows some commitment to prosecuting big tech.
Meanwhile, trump’s anti-trust moves were mostly based off petty issues he had with the ceos or the platforms having a “liberal bias”. Now that every big tech ceo has fallen in line and given him $1 million for his inauguration I doubt we’ll see much movement on that front.
Completely agree on all that.
Implying that the Republicans now “stand for the little guys” is dumb but also arguably true
No, no it isn’t arguably true. It’s just flat out incorrect. 100% of people could vote for him or others like him out of fear of disappearing in the night if they don’t. That doesn’t make him or the party “for the little guy”.
It doesn’t matter that 51% of the country votes for the Republicans. The party has consistently shit all over “the little guy” and made him eat it for over 40 years, telling him he’s eating shit and then said only the party can fix it.
All the while the party’s been giving tax money to their friends and saying “don’t worry, we’re here now. you can feed him as much shit as you want. we’ll find someone cleaning up shit and make the “little guy” think that person was making it instead. that way when you get caught doing it no one will believe it”
Server locations: Riseup is in the US (Washington state), so keep that in mind. Disroot is in the Netherlands (part of the EU).
Governance: Riseup: Look at their “about us” page. Disroot: Look at their “about” page. The terms of service are more detailed. tl;dr: As far as I can tell, these are run by leftists.
Integrity/Transparency: I have no idea how to grade this.
Ease of Use: Subjective. Riseup VPN is just: install the client, turn it on or off. Disroot is much better with a mail client of some kind, so if you already use one, it’s probably a 10, otherwise, the webmail server isn’t that great. Disroot also requries manual encryption (I’m biased here because I use Kmail which makes PGP really easy to use).
Pricing and Links: Free https://riseup.net/en/vpn https://disroot.org/en/services/email
tl;dr: Use collective-run services, not corporate-run services
disroot, Holymoly they run this all on this budget??
Regarding e-mail: “riseup.net” requires that a long-time user vouch for a new user and invite them. If the new user quickly turns into a complaint magnet (there’s a coming-of-age period after which their actions are considered their own), both the user and the inviter will be held responsible (kicked off the service). I think (hope) they aren’t so strict with VPN, but they have limited people and could not administer a mess made by a big bunch of people.
Needless to say, none of my (anarchist) comrades have ever been kicked off RiseUp, but they don’t send spam or threats, they just send their cat pictures encrypted with GPG, causing the authorities endless work. :)
Just like every reasonable service, RiseUp has a few technical mechanisms to ensure they aren’t compromised (disk and inbox encryption, etc) but obviously those can’t help against a dedicated and well-resourced adversary.
So, whatever e-mail server you use - use PGP / GPG. :) Then the adversary must compromise your device. If you are hardcore, encrypt and sign on an offline device. Then the adversary must breach the air gap.
(I used to sign releases for some anonymity-related project years ago. Those were the times when I seriously took measures because others depended on me. Currently, not so much.)
P.S. As for the lack of resources at RiseUp: this can be alleviated by donating to them. Which reminds me, I should set up a small regular donation to their representative organization in the EU.
