If someone in the Democratic party did turn himself on a personal level into something capable of going good things, why would you want to emphasize how shit he was 30 years ago?
Much better than shit is still a far cry from being ready to deal with a rising fascist movement. I knew it would be a disaster the moment Biden won the 2020 primary. Still, he did surprise me in a whole lot of positive ways, and credit where credit is due.
Speaking only of winning elections and nothing else, the problem the Democrats have electorally is that there is no way to package and sell their neoliberalism. To a right minded policy wonk, Democrats are always the right choice, but most voters aren’t policy wonks.
Getting elected requires a strong narrative. The story Democrats offer is “history is over and it’s all minor improvements from here”. That works OK when things are good, but when people are struggling it comes across very differently. Hillary’s “America is already great!” is a perfect example, but she has a real nack for being out of touch. The only time Democrats have a narrative is when Republicans do something awful, which requires Republicans to be in power. This, we keep flipping parties.
Trump’s narrative in 2024 looked a whole lot more like the classic hero’s journey than I have seen in 50 years. Attacked relentlessly from all sides with his demise predicted constantly, he somehow kept moving forward. Meanwhile, I don’t know what the hell to make of Kamala’s story.
The usual split is a lot less dramatic but, Republicans always have a narrative with heroes and villains, and Democrats rarely do. People want to know why productivity goes up and up and life just keeps getting harder. The Republicans offer an answer, it’s the immigrants, or it’s trans people in the showers with your kid, or it’s DEI treating you unfairly. Democrats have a much better and truer answer, but they won’t articulate it because the oligarchs who fund them won’t like it. So, the answer from Democrats is a whimper.
The only time Democrats have a narrative is when Republicans do something awful, which requires Republicans to be in power.
Biden’s narrative was that we need to have a big raise in corporate taxes, spend almost a trillion dollars finally doing something about climate change, bring domestic manufacturing back to the US and give people working-class jobs again. I sort of suspect that’s why the corporate press was so silent about the good things he did, and so aggressive and loud about the various attacks against him (like that inflation was all his fault, things like that that would resonate with the voters). It’s practically a built-in reflex to them at this point: They know the Republican will set the economy on fire, but they’ll be fine even if some other people won’t be, so by simply setting a line that if anyone crosses them, they will tank that person’s chances even if they’re otherwise doing some good things (and even if doing those things is really necessary for the US to keep functioning) (and even if the alternative is active widespread destruction), they keep teaching the lessons that people in power need to have taught to them. So they can keep control.
You’re not wrong in most of your analysis, I don’t think. But the Democrats didn’t get this way overnight or by accident. It happened on purpose, through natural selection and legalized bribery and threat. And, also, any time they do do something good, someone like you comes along and makes sure to shit all over it and “call balls and strikes” and try to “put it in context” and try to cancel it back out again.
There’s a whole other way to respond to blaming Reagan which is “yeah sure but we have a lot of momentum in people who are sick to death of the same bullshit, Bernie and AOC are drawing record crowds and there’s not even any kind of election going on that would motivate it, we actually probably have a chance at building a framework to do something about this whole broken system. Certainly Trump trying to gut the country for its fixtures and send everyone to ultra-prison will galvanize some opposition, let’s do something with it.”
But no. Instead it’s just this drumbeat of “whoa whoa whoa if you’re talking about Reagan let’s shit on Biden instead” “Democrats are shit” “let’s get discouraged” “it’s all his fault” “no wonder people aren’t excited” “neoliberalism” “doesn’t have a story” “get sad” “it’s all his fault” “remember when he betrayed you?” “most voters aren’t policy wonks” in big discouraging paragraphs.
There’s always something you can dig up, to do it with. And in the end, isn’t demotivating any kind of action or hope or credit for good things, the most important thing?
Biden’s narrative was that we need to have a big raise in corporate taxes, spend almost a trillion dollars finally doing something about climate change, bring domestic manufacturing back to the US and give people working-class jobs again.
That was his sales pitch, and one that I am totally behind, but those are promises, not a narrative. His “big raise” proposal wouldn’t even return rates to where they were before Trump slashed them. Policy promises sell to policy wonks, but most policy wonks are tired of two steps back, one step forward.
When I say narrative, think of a movie plot. Narratives require a hero and a villain. Had Biden framed multinational corporations as the villain, and set himself up as the hero that would take them on, then he would have had a narrative, but that’s not in his nature. (Which is part of what qualified him for establishment and corporate media backing in the 2020 primary.) Biden would have been a perfectly good Democrat back in the 90s when people were a lot more optimistic about their futures, but that was no longer sufficient. In the 2020 general the Republicans handed him a monster to slay in Trump’s complete failure to address the epidemic, but that story was old by the 2024 sequel.
like that inflation was all his fault
Yeah, that was unfortunate and complete bullshit. Whatever philosophical differences I have with Biden, we was certainly a competent manager of the economy. The inflation wasn’t even all that bad, only lasted a couple months, and America kept it lower than anyplace else in the western world. However, a more aggressive and energetic candidate, maybe even a younger Biden, could have gotten that message out. I don’t want to dwell on that too much though, because that’s too specific to the 2024 election. Anyways, there will always be something that goes wrong and hurts an incumbent.
But the Democrats didn’t get this way overnight or by accident. It happened on purpose, through natural selection and legalized bribery and threat.
Yes, a lot of it was externally driven, but it was also a strategy choice going back to right after Republicans embraced the southern strategy. A great easy read on the topic is “Listen Liberal” by Thomas Frank, author of “What’s the Matter with Kansas?”. Democrats made a conscious decision to abandon working class Americans in favor of urban professionals. It wasn’t a slow devolution, it was a pivot.
And, also, any time they do do something good, someone like you comes along and makes sure to shit all over it and “call balls and strikes” and try to “put it in context” and try to cancel it back out again.
I guarantee you that Republican voters aren’t listening to someone like me. Also, my language before a general election is quite a bit different than after. This is the time for Democrats to learn and refocus to doing better next time. I don’t compromise my principals before an election, but I spend a lot more time pointing out that whatever flaws the Democrats have, they are miles better than any Republican.
Despite your assumptions, I do a lot of posts defending Biden when he’s being treated unfairly. I also frequently comment about Trump and the Republicans, but not as much because the internet is absolutely flooded with comments like you describe. It just feels redundant to keep pointing out how shitty Trump is. For a while I was pointing out that he was going to be worse than many people expected, but I think the hive mind is pretty much caught up on that now. I also post differently on Lemmy than on other social media. Lemmy is mostly a left leaning space, so there is not as much reason to attack Trump here. On other platforms I spend a whole lot more time debunking Republican lies than anything else.
That was his sales pitch, and one that I am totally behind, but those are promises, not a narrative.
No, that was reality. That’s what happened. The promises were twice as big, but the reality was still enormous.
“Biden caused inflation to go up” was a narrative, and it sold like Nintendo Switch. “Biden caused wages to go up” is not an equally compelling narrative… why? That is what happened. I mean, I know why that one wasn’t a narrative, but the reason has absolutely nothing to do with either reality or the inherent nature of the narrative.
His “big raise” proposal wouldn’t even return rates to where they were before Trump slashed them.
Most working people made way more even after adjusting for inflation after Biden was done than before.
Democrats made a conscious decision to abandon working class Americans in favor of urban professionals. It wasn’t a slow devolution, it was a pivot.
True that. It is the source of most of their troubles today, not only because of the history and people’s pattern recognition, but because they’re still doing it. And yet, one singular Democrat broke with that, and here you are shitting on him.
No, that was reality. That’s what happened. The promises were twice as big, but the reality was still enormous.
Find me where Biden promised to raise the corporate tax rate back to where it was before Trump (35%) or higher and I’ll eat my words. I’m a little confused because the rate is still sitting where Trump put it (21%) and I thought we were talking about Biden’s promises for his 2024 administration. What do you mean by “happened”?
“Biden caused inflation to go up” was a narrative
Well yeah, but it was a narrative for Trump, not Biden. Also, the narratives I’m talking about are the ones going forward. I think you and I can be in perfect agreement that Biden did a lot that he could point to that should have made him more electable. I’m just saying that isn’t how most voters make their decisions. It absolutely should be, and if voters were that thoughtful then Democrats could probably win every election by pointing out that they are better than Republicans, even if it were only marginally. Campaigns need a dragon and a hero they believe can slay it. Corporate tax rates that are too low are never going to get the traction that “tranies” trying to shower with your kids will. The (perhaps theatrical) language of “taking on corporate criminals” might seem irrelevant, but it’s not.
Most working people made way more even after adjusting for inflation after Biden was done than before.
I really think we are failing to connect here. I absolutely agree that Biden was better than Trump in a myriad of ways. My issue of choice would be the NLRB and the great work they did in making it so much easier to start a union, and so much harder for corporations to union-bust. The problem isn’t what Biden did. I was always going to want him to go further than he did, but he far exceeded my predictions and in the world I want to live in he would have beaten Trump easily. (It’s a little late in the conversation to mention this, but I’m considering the Harris campaign to be a continuation of the Biden campaign to avoid getting lost in the weeds.)
one singular Democrat broke with that, and here you are shitting on him.
I disagree that this is what I’m doing. Also, as much of a positive surprise his presidency was, his rhetoric did not break with that. Even in policy, the flow of money from the bottom to the top was barely slowed.
I’m just saying that isn’t how most voters make their decisions. It absolutely should be
Correct, which is why the awful quality of our media and the prevalence of propaganda in our discourse should be a much bigger deal than it is considered as. If you and me want to talk about how important that is, instead of shitting on Biden for some random reason when Trump undoes some good thing that he did, we can do that, but you’re clearly not into that.
I don’t even know what to say about all the rest of this stuff. The point is: Your thing about Biden being “most responsible” even for this very, very loosely connected bit of policy that impacted student loans was a deliberate lie. Whether you were lying, or just repeating some lie that you genuinely believe, is not as important to me anymore. I feel like our interaction here can conclude.
Correct, which is why the awful quality of our media and the prevalence of propaganda in our discourse should be a much bigger deal than it is considered as.
Agreed, with a note that the Democratic establishment and their propaganda arm at MSNBC are is as guilty as anyone of causing people to quit caring about facts. Just look at the circus that is the Democratic primary process if you need evidence of that.
instead of shitting on Biden for some random reason
I’m still not shitting on Biden, and I’ve given you my non-random reason. If the Democrats don’t get real about addressing the absolutely justified distrust Americans have in the Democratic party, we are all cooked.
very loosely connected bit of policy that impacted student loans was a deliberate lie.
Much better than shit is still a far cry from being ready to deal with a rising fascist movement. I knew it would be a disaster the moment Biden won the 2020 primary. Still, he did surprise me in a whole lot of positive ways, and credit where credit is due.
Speaking only of winning elections and nothing else, the problem the Democrats have electorally is that there is no way to package and sell their neoliberalism. To a right minded policy wonk, Democrats are always the right choice, but most voters aren’t policy wonks.
Getting elected requires a strong narrative. The story Democrats offer is “history is over and it’s all minor improvements from here”. That works OK when things are good, but when people are struggling it comes across very differently. Hillary’s “America is already great!” is a perfect example, but she has a real nack for being out of touch. The only time Democrats have a narrative is when Republicans do something awful, which requires Republicans to be in power. This, we keep flipping parties.
Trump’s narrative in 2024 looked a whole lot more like the classic hero’s journey than I have seen in 50 years. Attacked relentlessly from all sides with his demise predicted constantly, he somehow kept moving forward. Meanwhile, I don’t know what the hell to make of Kamala’s story.
The usual split is a lot less dramatic but, Republicans always have a narrative with heroes and villains, and Democrats rarely do. People want to know why productivity goes up and up and life just keeps getting harder. The Republicans offer an answer, it’s the immigrants, or it’s trans people in the showers with your kid, or it’s DEI treating you unfairly. Democrats have a much better and truer answer, but they won’t articulate it because the oligarchs who fund them won’t like it. So, the answer from Democrats is a whimper.
Biden’s narrative was that we need to have a big raise in corporate taxes, spend almost a trillion dollars finally doing something about climate change, bring domestic manufacturing back to the US and give people working-class jobs again. I sort of suspect that’s why the corporate press was so silent about the good things he did, and so aggressive and loud about the various attacks against him (like that inflation was all his fault, things like that that would resonate with the voters). It’s practically a built-in reflex to them at this point: They know the Republican will set the economy on fire, but they’ll be fine even if some other people won’t be, so by simply setting a line that if anyone crosses them, they will tank that person’s chances even if they’re otherwise doing some good things (and even if doing those things is really necessary for the US to keep functioning) (and even if the alternative is active widespread destruction), they keep teaching the lessons that people in power need to have taught to them. So they can keep control.
You’re not wrong in most of your analysis, I don’t think. But the Democrats didn’t get this way overnight or by accident. It happened on purpose, through natural selection and legalized bribery and threat. And, also, any time they do do something good, someone like you comes along and makes sure to shit all over it and “call balls and strikes” and try to “put it in context” and try to cancel it back out again.
There’s a whole other way to respond to blaming Reagan which is “yeah sure but we have a lot of momentum in people who are sick to death of the same bullshit, Bernie and AOC are drawing record crowds and there’s not even any kind of election going on that would motivate it, we actually probably have a chance at building a framework to do something about this whole broken system. Certainly Trump trying to gut the country for its fixtures and send everyone to ultra-prison will galvanize some opposition, let’s do something with it.”
But no. Instead it’s just this drumbeat of “whoa whoa whoa if you’re talking about Reagan let’s shit on Biden instead” “Democrats are shit” “let’s get discouraged” “it’s all his fault” “no wonder people aren’t excited” “neoliberalism” “doesn’t have a story” “get sad” “it’s all his fault” “remember when he betrayed you?” “most voters aren’t policy wonks” in big discouraging paragraphs.
There’s always something you can dig up, to do it with. And in the end, isn’t demotivating any kind of action or hope or credit for good things, the most important thing?
That was his sales pitch, and one that I am totally behind, but those are promises, not a narrative. His “big raise” proposal wouldn’t even return rates to where they were before Trump slashed them. Policy promises sell to policy wonks, but most policy wonks are tired of two steps back, one step forward.
When I say narrative, think of a movie plot. Narratives require a hero and a villain. Had Biden framed multinational corporations as the villain, and set himself up as the hero that would take them on, then he would have had a narrative, but that’s not in his nature. (Which is part of what qualified him for establishment and corporate media backing in the 2020 primary.) Biden would have been a perfectly good Democrat back in the 90s when people were a lot more optimistic about their futures, but that was no longer sufficient. In the 2020 general the Republicans handed him a monster to slay in Trump’s complete failure to address the epidemic, but that story was old by the 2024 sequel.
Yeah, that was unfortunate and complete bullshit. Whatever philosophical differences I have with Biden, we was certainly a competent manager of the economy. The inflation wasn’t even all that bad, only lasted a couple months, and America kept it lower than anyplace else in the western world. However, a more aggressive and energetic candidate, maybe even a younger Biden, could have gotten that message out. I don’t want to dwell on that too much though, because that’s too specific to the 2024 election. Anyways, there will always be something that goes wrong and hurts an incumbent.
Yes, a lot of it was externally driven, but it was also a strategy choice going back to right after Republicans embraced the southern strategy. A great easy read on the topic is “Listen Liberal” by Thomas Frank, author of “What’s the Matter with Kansas?”. Democrats made a conscious decision to abandon working class Americans in favor of urban professionals. It wasn’t a slow devolution, it was a pivot.
I guarantee you that Republican voters aren’t listening to someone like me. Also, my language before a general election is quite a bit different than after. This is the time for Democrats to learn and refocus to doing better next time. I don’t compromise my principals before an election, but I spend a lot more time pointing out that whatever flaws the Democrats have, they are miles better than any Republican.
Despite your assumptions, I do a lot of posts defending Biden when he’s being treated unfairly. I also frequently comment about Trump and the Republicans, but not as much because the internet is absolutely flooded with comments like you describe. It just feels redundant to keep pointing out how shitty Trump is. For a while I was pointing out that he was going to be worse than many people expected, but I think the hive mind is pretty much caught up on that now. I also post differently on Lemmy than on other social media. Lemmy is mostly a left leaning space, so there is not as much reason to attack Trump here. On other platforms I spend a whole lot more time debunking Republican lies than anything else.
No, that was reality. That’s what happened. The promises were twice as big, but the reality was still enormous.
“Biden caused inflation to go up” was a narrative, and it sold like Nintendo Switch. “Biden caused wages to go up” is not an equally compelling narrative… why? That is what happened. I mean, I know why that one wasn’t a narrative, but the reason has absolutely nothing to do with either reality or the inherent nature of the narrative.
Most working people made way more even after adjusting for inflation after Biden was done than before.
True that. It is the source of most of their troubles today, not only because of the history and people’s pattern recognition, but because they’re still doing it. And yet, one singular Democrat broke with that, and here you are shitting on him.
Why?
Find me where Biden promised to raise the corporate tax rate back to where it was before Trump (35%) or higher and I’ll eat my words. I’m a little confused because the rate is still sitting where Trump put it (21%) and I thought we were talking about Biden’s promises for his 2024 administration. What do you mean by “happened”?
Well yeah, but it was a narrative for Trump, not Biden. Also, the narratives I’m talking about are the ones going forward. I think you and I can be in perfect agreement that Biden did a lot that he could point to that should have made him more electable. I’m just saying that isn’t how most voters make their decisions. It absolutely should be, and if voters were that thoughtful then Democrats could probably win every election by pointing out that they are better than Republicans, even if it were only marginally. Campaigns need a dragon and a hero they believe can slay it. Corporate tax rates that are too low are never going to get the traction that “tranies” trying to shower with your kids will. The (perhaps theatrical) language of “taking on corporate criminals” might seem irrelevant, but it’s not.
I really think we are failing to connect here. I absolutely agree that Biden was better than Trump in a myriad of ways. My issue of choice would be the NLRB and the great work they did in making it so much easier to start a union, and so much harder for corporations to union-bust. The problem isn’t what Biden did. I was always going to want him to go further than he did, but he far exceeded my predictions and in the world I want to live in he would have beaten Trump easily. (It’s a little late in the conversation to mention this, but I’m considering the Harris campaign to be a continuation of the Biden campaign to avoid getting lost in the weeds.)
I disagree that this is what I’m doing. Also, as much of a positive surprise his presidency was, his rhetoric did not break with that. Even in policy, the flow of money from the bottom to the top was barely slowed.
Correct, which is why the awful quality of our media and the prevalence of propaganda in our discourse should be a much bigger deal than it is considered as. If you and me want to talk about how important that is, instead of shitting on Biden for some random reason when Trump undoes some good thing that he did, we can do that, but you’re clearly not into that.
I don’t even know what to say about all the rest of this stuff. The point is: Your thing about Biden being “most responsible” even for this very, very loosely connected bit of policy that impacted student loans was a deliberate lie. Whether you were lying, or just repeating some lie that you genuinely believe, is not as important to me anymore. I feel like our interaction here can conclude.
Agreed, with a note that the Democratic establishment and their propaganda arm at MSNBC are is as guilty as anyone of causing people to quit caring about facts. Just look at the circus that is the Democratic primary process if you need evidence of that.
I’m still not shitting on Biden, and I’ve given you my non-random reason. If the Democrats don’t get real about addressing the absolutely justified distrust Americans have in the Democratic party, we are all cooked.
Nope.