Why would they not pay tax? They’re living here, working here, buying things here. Those are where we collect taxes.

When your rational for “your parents came here illegally, so now you have to live in a country you’ve never known and don’t speak the language” is “someone might not be paying taxes”… You’re being cruel to no purpose.

What constitutes “cruel and unusual punishment” is also defined by the laws of countries. That doesn’t mean that we don’t determine that some punishment is a human rights violation. Likewise, deciding to punish someone for the behavior of their parents is violation of human rights.

First, you actually can get citizenship from where you were born as well as by blood. It’s pretty common. They have dual citizenship. Done.

Your example is not as persuasive as you think. If I’m a nation, of course I need to care for the babies that live within my borders. Are you a monster?
I’m gonna have to tax and get help from the the parents, but that’s pretty normal for a nation to do.

Countries exist for the people that live there. If you live here the country is for you.

“Laws are how they are”, so why shouldn’t your government get to torture you? Just stating where you draw the line doesn’t make the line valid.

It’s commonly held to be a human right to not be stateless. Why is it a human right to have a country, but not a human right to have your home be that country?

Why are people in general not deserving of citizenship in the place they call home?

That’s a fair point of discussion. I stand by what I said as a valid response to the claim that government bestows a right, but no, it’s not as universally agreed upon in as I implied.

I’d argue that regardless of if a right is a fiat of nature or claimed by the people, that the right is still outside the government. People have the right to this and that, and the government can choose to infringe, respect or protect them, but they didn’t create the right.

I cannot face palm hard enough. You actually lack reading comprehension that hard.

That section does not imply that I think morality and the law are identical. That’s me believing that you do, and making an assertion that your beliefs would lead you to the indefensible position that the Holocaust wasn’t a human rights violation.
Also before I realized that you were being pedantic in ignorance, as revealed by you defending the notion that the Holocaust wasn’t a human rights violation.

I choose to interpret that you’re ignorant of philosophy, and now also not fluent enough in English to actually properly engage in this type of conversation, rather than think you’re a person who sees nothing wrong with the Holocaust.

In summary: “human rights” are a philosophical and ethical concept discussed under that and other names for thousands of years. That concept has clear implications for the law, and so the term is also used in a legal context. Most people refer to the philosophical context because morality is above the law.

Seeing as I no longer have confidence in the ability of this discussion to go anywhere due to communication impediments, I’m done. Have a good day.

Congress can vote to propose an amendment, and then send it to the states to be voted on and ratified.
The constitution is an agreement between states creating and restricting the federal government. Federal and federated come from the same root.

You seem to be persistently missing that there’s a difference between morality and a declaration.
Human rights are a question if morality. Like any moral or philosophical question people debate things and eventually come to some form of understanding, which might beget a document outlining the understanding, and possibly laws detailing actions to be taken to protect certain rights.

The universal declaration of human rights is a set of human rights people were able to agree on. That doesn’t make it any less subjective or arbitrary. It also doesn’t make it exhaustive or definitive.
Why not look to the American Convention on Human Rights? It’s similar but slightly different to the UDHR. Provides more protection for jus soli citizenship, but also more abortion restrictions. So is bodily autonomy a human right, or is the right to life beginning at conception a human right? Even taken exclusively as a strict legal term, the set of human rights isn’t without debate.

The universal declaration of human rights isn’t universally recognized. Most conceptions of human rights would find them to apply even if your government rejects a UN declaration or failed to sign a treaty.
As another example, the UDHR doesn’t acknowledge sexual orientation or gender identity. People try to interpret parts of it as implying them, but it’s blatantly an incomplete document. And that’s okay, since it’s not an exhaustive list. It was drafted when people didn’t agree that lgbtq rights were human rights. They were and are human rights without a piece of paper bestowing them.

Human rights are like any other morality question: subjective, and held in tension between individual beliefs and the various beliefs of society at large.

If your answer to something is to say that it’s illegal, it’s not unreasonable to ask which law makes it illegal, and why you think that matters when that law doesn’t apply to the nation in question.

Your reading comprehension is lacking if you think I’m failing to distinguish between legality and morality.

You’re failing basic comprehension that human rights are a concept that exists outside of the law. The law referring to human rights does not make the law the arbiter of human rights.

Read a book, and think about where you went wrong that you’re arguing that the Holocaust wasn’t a human rights violation.

I get that you think you’re being pedantic about what you think is a legal term being misused. You’re not. You’re being an asshole about an ethics term being used properly in a context you were ignorant of.

I’m fairly certain that you either never took or utterly failed basically any civics or philosophy class.

Human rights exist outside the context of government. It’s why something can be legal and still a human rights violation.

Human rights is a legal term and defined in written word.

Citation needed. That’s seriously such a preposterous stance that I actually skipped reading your entire response after I got to it.

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/rights-human/

The concept of human rights and the morality of how those with power act towards those without has been discussed under many names for millennia. It’s been discussed under the name “human rights” long before we started using it as a legal term. Hint: where do you think the legal term came from?

Philosophy pertaining to the law is not that same thing as the law.

It’s actually in the founding documents of our country that human rights are not defined by the legal system, and that we can only specifically enumerate a subset that we find critically important.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.–That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ninth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution

This makes sense because the philosophical works that were inspirational and popular amongst the founders were those of natural rights philosophers of different sorts quite concerned with human rights in general. You can see it in how the preamble is basically a summary of them.

All that aside: being shocked that someone is discussing morality when discussing human rights is naive and a cop out for a shitty opinion.

Alright, I felt bad and went back to try reading. I got to the bit where it seems you think the US only has jus soli citizenship (speaking of needing to use the right term) instead of both “by blood” and “by soil” and stopped again. Supporting both is actually quite easy. Possession of a US birth certificate makes you a citizen. Either parent being a citizen makes you a citizen. More problems arise from “by blood” citizenship, since you need to present the child and proof of parental citizenship before someone with authority to decide if the credentials are valid. A US citizen born abroad results in quite the bundle of paperwork as well as in-person consulate visits. Being born in a US hospital it’s a short form where a hospital official affirms where they were born. The rest is just vital records for statistics.

The president doesn’t get to change the constitution, or amend it. Congress doesn’t even have that power, the most they can do is present it to the states.

What you’re doing is arguing that a non-binding statement or a treaty that the US isn’t a party to is somehow a better source for morality and defining what constitutes a human right than decency or thinking for yourself.
Don’t outsource your conscience to dead guys from the 40s.

If someone was born here, they can be one of us. Both constitutionally and morally. The UN and Trump have fuck all to do with morality. Kicking someone out of their home because of where their parents are from is wrong.

As for the lawsuit… Where would they sue? On what possible grounds do you think that would even get a hearing? Who do you think would enforce the ruling?
The US has signed no treaty agreeing to not make people stateless.
What possible standing would anyone have to argue in court that a country denied them citizenship, particularly if, as you say, no one has a right to citizenship in any particular country? Or is jus soli citizenship a right but only if you don’t have any other option?

I understand the legal theory of human rights perfectly well, thanks though.

What you seem to be missing is that legality isn’t the end of morality, but an agreeable approximation endorsed by a government.
The universal declaration of human rights isn’t even that. It doesn’t carry the weight of law.

It seems that you’re arguing that no one should be denied a nationality, but that no one needs to grant you one. So your right to a nationality can be violated by… No one? Someone has to let you in, but no one in specific is responsible, and you can be stripped of it as long as it’s not arbitrary. You have the right to change it, but not to anything in particular. Is that about right?
This is of course ignoring the provision against exile, protection of freedom of movement and residence, or the right to return to your homeland. Although you seem to believe that a right to return to your homeland has no basis in where your homeland actually is.

Interesting. Maybe using a document weighed to be inoffensive to powerful nations shouldn’t be taken as the highpoint of morality. It’s almost like any statement that might create the connotation of “moral obligation” is couched in layers of exceptions or vagueness.

Did you know the Holocaust was perfectly legal? And, since you say we didn’t even have human rights before then, just the whim of the ruler, it wasn’t even a human rights violation to gas children and burn their bodies!
Perfectly legal, and hence perfectly moral. Right?

People who can’t see the distinction between morality and legality are disgusting.

The freedom to not be kicked out of your home and sent to a foreign land because of who your parents happened to be is as much a right or construct as the right to speech, belief, or any other codified right.
Hence why if that’s not a right, then there are really none of significance.

Rights are not bestowed by governments, international declarations, or treaties.

Arguing that a sovereign nations laws contradicting something makes it not a human right is a powerfully slippery slope.

The rights of people matter more than those of nations.

I think it’s telling that you only consider something a human right if there’s a law protecting it.
Do you think there were no human rights before 1948?

The universal declaration on human rights is the set of rights that a good number of nations could agree on. Nothing more, nothing less. It’s not an exhaustive or definitive list.

Before you start accusing people of ignorance or being intentionally obtuse, you might consider that you’re actually full of shit on the concept of morality.

“I’m not arguing anything” they say, arguing that it’s not a human right.

Get the fuck out of here with your double think.
Portugal and Sweden not respecting a human right doesn’t make it not a human right. Given how gleefully so much of Europe seems to be to deny people who have lived in the country for generations citizenship, to restrict their freedom or religion, or to just watch them fucking drown, I’m not super keen for the US to use Europe as a role model for human rights regarding citizenship.

Again, if taking someone from the only home they’ve ever known to live someplace they’ve never been, don’t speak the language, and have no citizenship isn’t a human rights violation, then nothing that matters is.
I don’t give a shit if Sweden says it’s fine.

The only moral way to fix the falling birthrate is to outlaw contraception and abortion, increase economic desperation to create a surge of underemployed young men, and increase the amount of anti-woman rhetoric and policy in popular culture and government.
You see, an increase in unemployment leads to an increase in baseline crime statistics, and an increase in dehumanizing and hateful attitudes towards women increases the rate of rape, which is now harder to prosecute. Devoid of any options, the birth rate rises and in many cases women are forced by implicit circumstances to limit their lives in ways they would not otherwise choose.
It’s a tactic explored by the Romanians, but it didn’t pan out. Clearly they allowed too many exceptions for maternal well-being, birth defects, rape and incest.

Says who? The UN? A treaty the US didn’t sign?

The constitution says people born here are citizens and they’ve decided to pretend it doesn’t. Why would an organization they want to withdraw from or a treaty they don’t recognize get more weight?

And what’s the stateless person going to do if they’re wronged? Sue?

You’re arguing that people don’t have the right to live where they were born and have lived their entire lives.
If that’s not a human right, than basically nothing is.

Also, “only” north and south america? That’s not a trivial portion of the world that you can just “only” away.

Yes. The most charitable interpretation is that people have forgotten the lessons of the 1900s and think that a replay of Herbert Hoover is a good idea.

Last time it took a few decades and destroying countless lives to fix. Hopefully the cost is lower this time.

Of sorts indeed. For a lot of people the military is the only option we give as a way out of difficult circumstances, and the educational grants and such are potentially their only way see a better future.
It’s rough but it’s unfortunately the best path our society has seen fit to build.
God forbid we invest in underserved communities or provide general education grants.

Well, clearly the court only said that the three judges in question had to stop issuing nationwide injunctions, right? The others haven’t done anything yet, and since each case has to be tried independently…

So fucking stupid. And a clear signal that they’re going to start deporting citizens now, since even though I can show my birth certificate, I can’t show my parents, or my parents parents and so on. Trace it back far enough and everyone will run into an ancestor that they can’t prove the citizenship of. “Oops, your citizenship is actually invalid! We’re sending you to a central American prison”.