How do you change that though? By beating down the people who have the least damage per person? Or by beating down the companies that push these products, and more importantly the ownership class that owns them and casually use private jets to chauffeur their poodles around?
You cannot do one or the other to stop climate change. You have to do both. Again, cars are one of the single largest polluters in the world, and especially in the usa. The working class will need to make changes in their life styles as well. The problem is not solveable just by having companies change, consumers also need to be willing to accept changes in purchasing habits
Consumers are not babies. Most are not children. They can take full responsibility for their own choices and failure to research when it’s available. There is a reasonable extent that can be forgiven from lack of information. But most is still their fault. See people drinking bottles water when they have perfect access to safe drinking water. See people driving to work when they’re easily within public transit areas. See people buying slave labor made trinkets off temu, shein, amazon, AliExpress, and many more, or buying constant new shitly made polyester clothes because “fashion”.
Society is created by those who participate. Hand waving “it’s a society problem” denies the individual responsibility of everyone to guide society.
All the information is easily accessible and clear to everyone. They are making a conscious decision to pollute more for their own convenience. This is not saying companies are not also responsible for massive amounts of waste. Do not take it like that. But people need to also understand lifestyles cannot stay the same and still fight climate change. People need to give up their trinkets, fast fashion, cars, etc, if they want to actually fight climate change and pollution
Consumers are not babies. Most are not children. They can take full responsibility for their own choices and failure to research when it’s available.
This is an attitude that seeks to attribute blame rather than practically solve the problem.
This is evidenced by you continuing to say:
There is a reasonable extent that can be forgiven from lack of information.
Which only deals with this from thinking about this as a “who do I blame” rather than a “How can society solve this problem”.
We’ve seen that consumers for instance, don’t choose excess packaging, companies do.
In that same way, with things like the CAFE standards, Chicken tax and other ways that trucks are incentivised not to mention propagandized, its easy to see how this consumer “switch in preference” was manufactured, in the same way that the consumer switch to eating 4 times the amount of cheese within a few decades was a manufactured choice by teams of lobbyists.
We could all simply choose to consumer less animal product, be healthier and leave the environment in a much better position, but yet schools are still forced to feed kids milk with every meal due to lobbying.
Basically always, the root cause lies somewhere with some lobbyist group pushing their interests over that of the consumer.
You can handwave that away and choose to focus on personal choice, but to do that is to ignore the fact that for every issue you care about a whole lot, many people have issues they care about more, even if you’re just talking about fellow climate appreciating folks. What I’m saying is people can’t put all of their energy into every issue all at once. No human can. They’d burn out and be unable to move. That’s why these things matter and can only really be solved at the policy level.
See people driving to work when they’re easily within public transit areas.
You ever stop to think of the long history of car companies actively and successfully lobbying to ruin public transits image and efficiency in the US?
See people buying slave labor made trinkets off temu, shein, amazon, AliExpress, and many more, or buying constant new shitly made polyester clothes because “fashion”.
I guarantee you there are areas of life you are blind to as well, where someone equally as idealistic to you and equally looking for someone to blame rather than solving the problem, is screaming at the top of their lungs angry you don’t do something about it thinking the same as you “the information is all there!!!”
All the information is easily accessible and clear to everyone. They are making a conscious decision to pollute more for their own convenience. This is not saying companies are not also responsible for massive amounts of waste. Do not take it like that. But people need to also understand lifestyles cannot stay the same and still fight climate change. People need to give up their trinkets, fast fashion, cars, etc, if they want to actually fight climate change and pollution
Yada yada yada, but they won’t, and until you get the reasons why they won’t, and how humans have finite focus, and do burnout, or become apathetic, often due to literal people whose jobs it is to get them to, you won’t be trying to solve the problem, but instead you’ll be trying to pin the blame to the least powerful people in the scenario.
This is an attitude that seeks to attribute blame rather than practically solve the problem.
Attribute responsibility. People need to take responsibility for their own decisions, and change them.
You can handwave that away and choose to focus on personal choice
I’m not. I mention it in response to people’s attempts to claim it’s never their fault. It’s always someone else’s fault. That there’s nothing they can do, it’s always everyone else.
We could all simply choose to consumer less animal product, be healthier and leave the environment in a much better position, but yet schools are still forced to feed kids milk with every meal due to lobbying.
And society would be better off for that change anyways.
You ever stop to think of the long history of car companies actively and successfully lobbying to ruin public transits image and efficiency in the US?
People who are in areas with public transit and refuse to use it because it’s a minor inconvenience are specifically who I’m talking about that with. And yes, people’s votes helped cause that change.
What I’m saying is people can’t put all of their energy into every issue all at once. No human can
They don’t need to. They can make multiple small choices and lifestyle changes to great benefit. A literal world ending threat should be the most important issue.
I guarantee you there are areas of life you are blind to as well
I’m sure there are. I know there are. Every year I strive to improve. To consume less. To eat less meat. To bike and rid myself of the car I drove for far too long. Improvement takes time. It’s not a one second thing, it takes decades of effort. But it makes a difference, one little step, one person at a time, makes a difference. However, I can be sure I’m actually trying.
you won’t be trying to solve the problem, but instead you’ll be trying to pin the blame to the least powerful people in the scenario.
No rain drop thinks it caused the flood. Every, single, bit matters. A response needs to come from all sides. From the top down, regulating companies to use electric, tax heavily on plastic waste. From the bottom up, encouraging people to take public transit and bike, partly through public awareness campaigns and partly through increased bike and train infrastructure. You can’t solve it by only focusing on companies. You HAVE to get the consumers to be willing to change their habits as well. People need to be aware that they DO have an impact, and their individual changes will make a difference.
A lot of people’s apathy is driven by the false perception that they cannot make a difference with their own power. That their vote doesn’t matter. These false perceptions are what need to be changes so that society can move forward, and push the companies, through laws, punishments, and boycotts, into being environmentally sound.
Attribute responsibility. People need to take responsibility for their own decisions, and change them.
You’re just playing word salad here.
It’s still about attributing blame because you refuse to account for how people operate and how effective lobbying/propaganda groups are on regular people who aren’t as aware on any given topic as you are.
I’m not. I mention it in response to people’s attempts to claim it’s never their fault. It’s always someone else’s fault. That there’s nothing they can do, it’s always everyone else.
This is a made up strawman. No one is saying that here, and people aren’t typically saying that without a large amount of nuance and less absoluteness on this topic.
And society would be better off for that change anyways.
You say this like you’re making a point when instead you make it clear you udderly missed my point. The point was that its “technically” peoples choice, but it clearly isn’t with how heavy the lobbying is.
The hope was that this would moove your opinion and help you culture an appreciation for the extremely strong effects of propaganda and lobbying such that something people think is choice, is far less choice than they think.
Perhaps I’m milking this point now, but I really thought it persuede you to think more about how people who aren’t in your specific bubble think and are affected.
People who are in areas with public transit and refuse to use it because it’s a minor inconvenience are specifically who I’m talking about that with. And yes, people’s votes helped cause that change.
People’s votes after what though? People didn’t just randomly form these opinions.
People in Europe have completely different opinions in general, and you know what the major factor is? A lack of the massive inertial propaganda that the US has had. Did you check out my link? I encourage you to watch it.
It’s just not as simple as you make it out to be.
I’m sure there are. I know there are. Every year I strive to improve. To consume less. To eat less meat. To bike and rid myself of the car I drove for far too long. Improvement takes time. It’s not a one second thing, it takes decades of effort. But it makes a difference, one little step, one person at a time, makes a difference. However, I can be sure I’m actually trying.
It sure does, now how can you say all that, but miss my point entirely that there could be someone putting the exact same amount of effort into being a better person yet not have their issues align with yours on this at all?
Do you not see why policy is the major way to change their habits?
No rain drop thinks it caused the flood. Every, single, bit matters.
You aren’t arguing against me. You just aren’t reading my points at all.
A response needs to come from all sides
That is literally impossible for the very same reasons that you said “I’m sure there are. I know there are.” above. If you can’t, how the hell are you expecting other people to for the issues you find most important?
You can’t solve it by only focusing on companies.
Quite frankly, you absolutely could. If the propaganda influencing consumer choices was stopped, you’d have a good enough solution.
Manufacturers would be making smaller vehicles due to regulations, people couldn’t choose monstrosities, roads would get slimmer in new development, public transportation would be built better.
Its completely possible from a top down approach, but utterly impossible when trying to focus from a bottom up approach.
A lot of people’s apathy is driven by the false perception that they cannot make a difference with their own power.
Partially because there are so many folks like you who without realizing they are doing so, expect everyone to understand and care about every topic, even while you yourself obviously could not live up to such an unrealistic standard.
But also partially because of propaganda.
Why do you think BP loves telling people to take personal responsibility over climate issues? They know its a dead end.
That their vote doesn’t matter.
This part I absolutely agree with and constantly argue with people on lemmy about. So many people believe the only way out is some whimsical fantastical revolution that will never come, or a third party that would actually secure a victory for the enemies.
F150s are a significant part of the entire emissions of the united states. Cars in general are one of the largest single categories.
How do you change that though? By beating down the people who have the least damage per person? Or by beating down the companies that push these products, and more importantly the ownership class that owns them and casually use private jets to chauffeur their poodles around?
You cannot do one or the other to stop climate change. You have to do both. Again, cars are one of the single largest polluters in the world, and especially in the usa. The working class will need to make changes in their life styles as well. The problem is not solveable just by having companies change, consumers also need to be willing to accept changes in purchasing habits
I feel you misunderstand my point.
I’m saying consumers are way less responsible for their purchasing decisions than many people think.
Car centricity is a societal problem. The big trucks are a car company propoganda problem.
Consumers are not babies. Most are not children. They can take full responsibility for their own choices and failure to research when it’s available. There is a reasonable extent that can be forgiven from lack of information. But most is still their fault. See people drinking bottles water when they have perfect access to safe drinking water. See people driving to work when they’re easily within public transit areas. See people buying slave labor made trinkets off temu, shein, amazon, AliExpress, and many more, or buying constant new shitly made polyester clothes because “fashion”.
Society is created by those who participate. Hand waving “it’s a society problem” denies the individual responsibility of everyone to guide society.
All the information is easily accessible and clear to everyone. They are making a conscious decision to pollute more for their own convenience. This is not saying companies are not also responsible for massive amounts of waste. Do not take it like that. But people need to also understand lifestyles cannot stay the same and still fight climate change. People need to give up their trinkets, fast fashion, cars, etc, if they want to actually fight climate change and pollution
This is an attitude that seeks to attribute blame rather than practically solve the problem.
This is evidenced by you continuing to say:
Which only deals with this from thinking about this as a “who do I blame” rather than a “How can society solve this problem”.
We’ve seen that consumers for instance, don’t choose excess packaging, companies do.
In that same way, with things like the CAFE standards, Chicken tax and other ways that trucks are incentivised not to mention propagandized, its easy to see how this consumer “switch in preference” was manufactured, in the same way that the consumer switch to eating 4 times the amount of cheese within a few decades was a manufactured choice by teams of lobbyists.
We could all simply choose to consumer less animal product, be healthier and leave the environment in a much better position, but yet schools are still forced to feed kids milk with every meal due to lobbying.
Basically always, the root cause lies somewhere with some lobbyist group pushing their interests over that of the consumer.
You can handwave that away and choose to focus on personal choice, but to do that is to ignore the fact that for every issue you care about a whole lot, many people have issues they care about more, even if you’re just talking about fellow climate appreciating folks. What I’m saying is people can’t put all of their energy into every issue all at once. No human can. They’d burn out and be unable to move. That’s why these things matter and can only really be solved at the policy level.
You ever stop to think of the long history of car companies actively and successfully lobbying to ruin public transits image and efficiency in the US?
This didn’t just put up over night. People didnt just magically have these conclusions. Great video on this topic by a pretty awesome edutainment channel.
I guarantee you there are areas of life you are blind to as well, where someone equally as idealistic to you and equally looking for someone to blame rather than solving the problem, is screaming at the top of their lungs angry you don’t do something about it thinking the same as you “the information is all there!!!”
Yada yada yada, but they won’t, and until you get the reasons why they won’t, and how humans have finite focus, and do burnout, or become apathetic, often due to literal people whose jobs it is to get them to, you won’t be trying to solve the problem, but instead you’ll be trying to pin the blame to the least powerful people in the scenario.
Attribute responsibility. People need to take responsibility for their own decisions, and change them.
I’m not. I mention it in response to people’s attempts to claim it’s never their fault. It’s always someone else’s fault. That there’s nothing they can do, it’s always everyone else.
And society would be better off for that change anyways.
People who are in areas with public transit and refuse to use it because it’s a minor inconvenience are specifically who I’m talking about that with. And yes, people’s votes helped cause that change.
They don’t need to. They can make multiple small choices and lifestyle changes to great benefit. A literal world ending threat should be the most important issue.
I’m sure there are. I know there are. Every year I strive to improve. To consume less. To eat less meat. To bike and rid myself of the car I drove for far too long. Improvement takes time. It’s not a one second thing, it takes decades of effort. But it makes a difference, one little step, one person at a time, makes a difference. However, I can be sure I’m actually trying.
No rain drop thinks it caused the flood. Every, single, bit matters. A response needs to come from all sides. From the top down, regulating companies to use electric, tax heavily on plastic waste. From the bottom up, encouraging people to take public transit and bike, partly through public awareness campaigns and partly through increased bike and train infrastructure. You can’t solve it by only focusing on companies. You HAVE to get the consumers to be willing to change their habits as well. People need to be aware that they DO have an impact, and their individual changes will make a difference.
A lot of people’s apathy is driven by the false perception that they cannot make a difference with their own power. That their vote doesn’t matter. These false perceptions are what need to be changes so that society can move forward, and push the companies, through laws, punishments, and boycotts, into being environmentally sound.
You’re just playing word salad here.
It’s still about attributing blame because you refuse to account for how people operate and how effective lobbying/propaganda groups are on regular people who aren’t as aware on any given topic as you are.
This is a made up strawman. No one is saying that here, and people aren’t typically saying that without a large amount of nuance and less absoluteness on this topic.
You say this like you’re making a point when instead you make it clear you udderly missed my point. The point was that its “technically” peoples choice, but it clearly isn’t with how heavy the lobbying is.
The hope was that this would moove your opinion and help you culture an appreciation for the extremely strong effects of propaganda and lobbying such that something people think is choice, is far less choice than they think.
Perhaps I’m milking this point now, but I really thought it persuede you to think more about how people who aren’t in your specific bubble think and are affected.
People’s votes after what though? People didn’t just randomly form these opinions.
People in Europe have completely different opinions in general, and you know what the major factor is? A lack of the massive inertial propaganda that the US has had. Did you check out my link? I encourage you to watch it.
It’s just not as simple as you make it out to be.
It sure does, now how can you say all that, but miss my point entirely that there could be someone putting the exact same amount of effort into being a better person yet not have their issues align with yours on this at all?
Do you not see why policy is the major way to change their habits?
You aren’t arguing against me. You just aren’t reading my points at all.
That is literally impossible for the very same reasons that you said “I’m sure there are. I know there are.” above. If you can’t, how the hell are you expecting other people to for the issues you find most important?
Quite frankly, you absolutely could. If the propaganda influencing consumer choices was stopped, you’d have a good enough solution.
Manufacturers would be making smaller vehicles due to regulations, people couldn’t choose monstrosities, roads would get slimmer in new development, public transportation would be built better.
Its completely possible from a top down approach, but utterly impossible when trying to focus from a bottom up approach.
Partially because there are so many folks like you who without realizing they are doing so, expect everyone to understand and care about every topic, even while you yourself obviously could not live up to such an unrealistic standard.
But also partially because of propaganda.
Why do you think BP loves telling people to take personal responsibility over climate issues? They know its a dead end.
This part I absolutely agree with and constantly argue with people on lemmy about. So many people believe the only way out is some whimsical fantastical revolution that will never come, or a third party that would actually secure a victory for the enemies.