Yeah, both sides are the same. One would have continued benefits for the poor while the other is using ICE as a WMD and protecting pedos. Really identical when you think about it.
The Trump term has literally seen a truce to the genocide in Palestine. This isn’t an endorsement of Trump, he’s a fascist piece of shit, but to those constantly bickering about genocide being worse under Trump, where are you now?!
Yeah democrats really care about the poor.
And they totally wouldn’t increase the ICE budget, and deportations.
edit: By the way, you might want want to be a little less transparent with vote manipulation. I just banned 3 of your no-content alts.
You’re right. They are both the same. Harris did have her own crypto coin I believe and she was a pedo’s best friend(because of the children) there for a while. I couldn’t believe it when VP Harris pressured colleges to ignore America’s past and pushed all government agencies to remove DEI and to help ensure white supremacy in all federal areas. I think she was about to challenge gay marriage and target all trans rights while alienating all of our NATO and non NATO allies with personal insults and tarrifs. Oh yeah, Harris was huge on tarrifs. I forgot how nothing would be different had blue won. Thank you for reminding me!
She has her own list of atrocities to account for, but most importantly, she’s pro-israel, and pro-genocide.
Removed by mod
Removed by mod
With democrats at the (wheel?). Its the same trolley, the same track and the same people on it.
But they mostly abide by a legal speed limit and in general go much slower.
Sometimes they get to a full stopt and get out to clear some people manually to get back going.
The gop sees this and cries out that these slow speed limits are the problem. Go fast, get there quicker.
Neither party wants to talk seriously about where we’re going.
Neither wants to stop.
in general go much slower
Tell that to Palestinians, the truce has been implemented famously not during democrat rule.
Shit none of them talk about where theyre at. The bleeding edge of late stage capitalism.
Removed by mod
deleted by creator
Karl Marx said:
The relationship of the revolutionary workers’ party to the petty-bourgeois democrats is this: it cooperates with them against the party which they aim to overthrow; it opposes them wherever they wish to secure their own position.
What that means in the American system is we vote against liberals in the primaries, and we vote for them against the fascists. America doesn’t have ranked choice voting, but voting socialist in the primaries and left (out of the two candidates presented) in the generals is the closest approximation. This is the Karl Marx approved strategy, as you can see from his speech to the Communist League.
Now let’s talk about this meme. It’s fake news. There was no Alligator Auschwitz under the Democrats. Guantanamo Bay wasn’t a concentration camp for immigrants under the Democrats. I submit that the Democrats are at least 1% better than the Republicans, and that this proves the meme is fake news. And if anyone replies to this comment and says well 1% isn’t good enough, I’m going to accuse you of moving the goalposts, because this meme says colour is the only difference. The meme doesn’t say 1% less people get run over by the trolley, and I think there are at least 1% fewer state caused deaths under the Democrats.
What that means in the American system is we vote against liberals in the primaries, and we vote for them against the fascists.
The democrats are also funding this genocide:
There was no Alligator Auschwitz under the Democrats.
The democrats expanded these immigrant prison camps. Some stats from the Obama era:
- Deported over 3M immigrants during his presidency, 2 Deported over 400k people in 2012 alone. Helped grow ICE, and the US mass immigrant detention system.
- In the present day, ICE (U.S._Immigration_and_Customs_Enforcement), the police tasked with immigration enforcement, operates over 500 prison camps, holding over 34,000 undocumented people deemed “aliens”, 20,000 of which have no criminal convictions, in the US system of immigration detention. The camps include forced labor (often with contracts from private companies), poor conditions, lack of rights (since the undocumented aren’t considered citizens), and forced deportations, often splitting up families. Detainees are often held for a year without trial, with antiquated court procedures pushing back court dates for months, encouraging many to accept immediate deportation in the hopes of being able to return faster than the court can reach a decision, but forfeiting legal status, in a cruel system of coercion. After the creation of DHS and ICE, the budget for immigration enforcement doubled from $6.2 billion in 2002 to $12.5 billion in 2006 under Obama. 1, 2,3
Guantanamo Bay wasn’t a concentration camp for immigrants under the Democrats.
The democrats didn’t close their torture camp in Cuba either.
If you go to university and do any kind of field that involves essay writing, you’ll learn to use a thesis statement to summarise your argument so people know what you’re arguing for. You’ve provided some evidence, but it’s entirely unclear what your position is in this conversation other than “the democrats do bad things sometimes”. If your entire position is “the democrats do bad things sometimes”, then great job! We’re all very proud of you for proving the democrats do bad things sometimes. Now go do your fucking job developing the Lemmy software, because this software is full of issues and the grownups are talking about important issues that actually have a point.
Now go do your fucking job developing the Lemmy software, because this software is full of issues and the grownups are talking about important issues that actually have a point.
Leaving this comment up to show the titanic levels of entitlement and arrogance from the anti-communist crowd.
Even open source devs only exist to do free labor for them, we’re not people to them.
- Deported over 3M immigrants during his presidency, 2 Deported over 400k people in 2012 alone. Helped grow ICE, and the US mass immigrant detention system.
deleted by creator
¨Between 2009 and 2016, the Barack Obama administration oversaw the deporting of a record 2.4 million undocumented immigrants who had entered the United States, earning him the nickname “Deporter-In-Chief” by Janet Murguía, the president of National Council of La Raza. According to ICE data, about 40% of those deported by ICE in 2015 had no criminal conviction, while a majority of those convicted were guilty of minor charges. Statistics of record deportations were partly due to a change in how deportations were counted that began during the Bush administration and continued under the Obama administration.¨.
Guys you need to understand that Americans are only capable to see what is front of them. If happens in front of them is nasty stuff but if is under the radar? Is alright (Unless is a evil foreign country, they don’t need to see anything to believe they are evil)
Hey blue fascist, who built the camps?
Yes.
deleted by creator
Removed by mod
You don’t give a shit about anyone but yourself
Well I voted for it to be green
Removed by mod
Yeah! Let’s all vote mauve! That’s an option right? Teal? Aquamarine? So many choices!
In Poland last election saw 17 parties and 43 independents in sejm, but all of them are neoliberal fash ghouls.
Furthermore: how many different parties are in the EU? How many EU countries are rising GDP expenditure in military to 5%? Democracy under capitalism is an illusion
You can only choose the flavours they “allow”
Removed by mod
If you have to vote between a candidate who wants to build 5 concentration camps and another candidate who wants to build one. You vote for the candidate that only wants to build only one concentration camp. Sure, both candidates are really bad, but one is considerably worse.
Therefore, we must still vote for the lesser of two evils. Not voting at all because both sides bad is how democracy dies, especially when democracy itself is under attack right now.
If you have to vote between a candidate who wants to build 5 concentration camps and another candidate who wants to build one
So you support China in their liberation of Tibet from feudal serfdom? You support the Soviet Union destroying Nazism despite the excesses made in the gulag years? Or do you only extend this courtesy to capitalist imperialist regimes?
Obviously not. I don’t support building concentration camps in general, and China is a bad example since there’s no opposing party in Chinq. Admittedly, the example I gave was a bit on the extreme side. Regardless, I still disagree that if both sides are bad then they automatically are equalivent and thus voting is pointless as the meme seems to imply.
If Harris had won the 2024 election, do you honestly think she would be mass deporting immigrants without a trial, starting a trade war with China, attempt to cut funding for FEMA, etc? Sure, I’ll give you that she would have been content with the genocide in Gaza and would have been propping up the capitalist status quo. However, is that truly equilvent to what Trump has done in just his first year of his second term?
The US is not and has never been a democracy
Removed by mod
They aren’t fascists, yet they’re committing a genocide:
Democrats: against every genocide except the current one.
The world cares about what they do to other nations, not to themselves. Crazy gun policies? Slave labour in prisons? Your problem. Military expansionism, cripling economic sanctions, political inference? Very much our problem. That did’t change.
I don’t give a shit about " bankrupting the US!". It literally prints it’s own money. But I sure as shit do remember Democrats going full fascist and participating in the modern Holocaust.
democrats are no saints.
By which you mean they’re genocidal monsters.
They just do nothing to stop the fascists when they have power and do everything they can to compromise with them.
If there’s one lesson to be learned this year, it’s that politicians who compromise with fascists are still miles better than just uncompromised fascism.
What’s the actual difference? You end up at the same place with either one.
This feels like trying to explain to someone that you can have 2 different infinities, and one is larger than the other. Both are bad, but one is clearly worse.
“What’s the difference if you end up at the same place?”
The difference is that 2 genocides is not the same place as 1 genocide. It is reasonable to criticize the people supporting a genocide while at the same time recognizing that the people wanting more genocides are not the same.
The difference is that 2 genocides is not the same place as 1 genocide.
You are already a fascist. You have already approved the genocide of a nation for the sake of what? Saving minorities in America? Guess what you will send them straight to the furnace the moment they become “expedient” to sacrifice for your own gain.
The only real difference is that there are consequences for you at home in the US and that’s the only part you actually care about
The difference is that 2 genocides is not the same place as 1 genocide.
How do you find yourself typing something like this and not pause for thought?
Says who? Yeah, the Dems are filthy neolibs, but all they really care about is money and influence. They’re rainbow capitalists.
The other is literally based on hate and fear, they might actually care about building a christo-nationalist ethnostate more than money.
They certainly have some goals in common, but even compromise isn’t going to the same place.
They’re rainbow capitalists.
They are rainbow capitalist because of former material conditions. Besides bombing the Middle East because of alleged inherent homophobia and steal their oil or bombing the Middle East because they are slur and steal their oil - is in the end a matter of rhetoric only.
politicians who compromise with fascists are still miles better than just uncompromised fascism
the paradox of tolerance, ever heard of it?
Yup. Ever heard of Duverger"s Law?
Great hero of the people: Neville Chamberlain
If you had to choose between Neville Chamberlain and Hitler?
I’d say that’s a ridiculous choice and it’s time to organize with the masses against the system that presented it to us; rather than undermine that effort by treating the system as legitimate and shaming others for not seeing the candidates and their futures the way I did.
Hand me two cups of shit, I still have free will to throw them back in your face. The system can force feed if it wants but you won’t see me voluntarily picking a shit cup and eating shit.
I’d say that’s a ridiculous choice and it’s time to organize with the masses against the system that presented it to us
Agreed
rather than undermine that effort by treating the system as legitimate and shaming others for not seeing the candidates and their futures the way I did.
Nah that’s dumb. I don’t give a shit about “treating the system as legitimate”. The system is what it is, and it will continue to be the system until it isn’t anymore. That’s gonna take more than a handful of people refusing to acknowledge the system’s “legitimacy”.
Hand me two cups of shit, I still have free will to throw them back in your face. The system can force feed if it wants but you won’t see me voluntarily picking a shit cup and eating shit.
It is doing that though. You get the option to vote for which of the two cups they force feed you, and everyone else. We are not presently in a position to throw anything back right now. When we are, I’m all for it. But part of that is choosing the smaller cup of shit while we gather strength.
The point is I’m not going to lend you any legitimacy by picking up the shit and eating it myself, then turning at the people around me and asking why they aren’t eating it yet. I’m going to make it impossible for the shit peddler to hide their willingness and ability to abuse their power. If I’m eating shit either way, why would I do it in a way that makes it apparent to outsiders that I’m choosing to eat shit?
And no, when you scold people for not participating in a system, you are not just not “refusing to acknowledge its legitimacy”. You are promoting it, whether you care to or not. You are promoting the idea that everyone is choosing these options out of complete and true support of complete and unbiased information. This is especially true when people like you misrepresent and refuse to understand the arguments of those who choose to abstain or vote third party.
You are saying, “if you participate in this system, you could change the way things are going; and if you don’t, then you implicitly consent to it”, which is simply not true. Interestingly enough, you know how little power a person has when acting as an individual, which is why you minimize the reach of individuals when it comes to forms of political action other than voting, but you never apply it to the situation of voting where the ruling class has vast numbers of ways to influence people’s behaviors in whatever direction they want.
The change can only come when we have built the ability to move cohesively as a class, or a voting bloc if you will, that can either take power for itself or forcing our leaders to come to our table if they want our compliance. We can only build this by overcoming the resentment we hold for other members of our class, and putting one foot in front of the other; turning one person at a time towards the inner workings of the machine that the ruling class works so hard to hide. Not by stoking resentment and wasting our energy trying to manipulate an illegitimate system while we wait around for the movement to build itself.
More like choosing between Hindenburg and Hitler.
Is committing genocide not a fascist act?
Removed by mod
Fascism provides a specific permission structure for genocide that isn’t present in other systems. That’s not to say genocide didn’t happen before the term was coined, but that the characteristics of fascism; nationalism, racial supremacy, military supremacy, victim complex, out groups, scapegoating, disdain for human rights, etc.; tend to be present anywhere that genocide is present, and genocide doesn’t just happen because some “genocidal regime” found its way into power.
Whether or not you need their permission to make the policy; you need the people’s permission for it to stand, because ultimately you need the people’s voluntary compliance in order to carry it out. Otherwise you undermine your own system and generally incite resistance against it.
God, how much is a sniveling little toad do you have to be to engage in that kind of nit picking semantics about genocide.
I’m sympathetic to your argument, but ultimately they absolutely are fascist. If you doubt me, then to ask a Palestinian. There is very little that the Trump regime is doing that the Democrats weren’t doing less obnoxiously and on a much slower timescale.
We can’t keep accepting the lesser evil indefinitely. When you brush off the serious issues in the Democratic party with language like “no saints” you make it look like that’s exactly what you intend for the country to do. I mean “politicians will be politicians”. That’s not convincing anymore.
If you doubt me, then to ask a Palestinian.
Just to clarify this to others:
There is very little that the Trump regime is doing that the Democrats weren’t doing less obnoxiously and on a much slower timescale.
That part is important. I hear you about “the lesser evil” but if you’re response to resisting a lesser evil results in a faster, accelerated evil then you have contributed to a much greater harm. If you doubt me, ask a Palestinian if they are better off with Democrats not having any power.
If you doubt me, ask a Palestinian if they are better off with Democrats not having any power.
Biden was in power when the genocide started and during most of it. He had the power to stop it and didn’t. So there’s your answer.
That’s the part where I’m sympathetic to your argument. I think anyone not voting for Harris made a mistake. I also think the arguments people like you made for people to vote for Harris were really really bad and that you are enabling the Democrats to continue down a terrible path of failure.
Palestinians have been a victim of genocide since 1948. Biden send cops to beat down pro-Palestinian student protestors, Bill Clinton went to Dearborn and talked about Samaria & Judea, a thousand democrat voters cackled on twitter wishing violence on gaza after holocaust harris lost.
Genocide and Empire is bipartisan politics and we will destroy both of them. Lies must make place for truth and empires mush perish.
They’re certainly no worse off.
Hmm, red makes it go faster so you kill more people faster but they don’t suffer as long but blue gives you better team mates in matches… wait is this competitive trolley slaughter? I wasn’t expecting to need a team I guess I’ll choose blue because they will be carrying.
Innacurate. Obama used drones, saving countless american lifes. You naughty tankie.
Make no mistake, Barack Obama is a war criminal.
During his presidency, Obama approved the use of 563 drone strikes that killed approximately 3,797 people. In fact, Obama authorized 54 drone strikes alone in Pakistan during his first year in office. One of the first CIA drone strikes under President Obama was at a funeral, murdering as many as 41 Pakistani civilians. The following year, Obama led 128 CIA drone strikes in Pakistan that killed at least 89 civilians. Just two years into his presidency, it was clear that the “hope” that President Obama offered during his 2008 campaign could not escape U.S. imperialism.
The drone operations extended to Somalia and Yemen in 2010 and 2011, resulting in more destructive results. Under the belief they were targeting al-Qaida, President Obama’s first strike on Yemen killed 55 people including 21 children, 10 of which were under the age of five. Additionally, 12 women, five of them pregnant, were also among those who were murdered in this strike. These blundered acts of murder by not only President Obama, but the U.S. government, are morally reprehensible.
Even more civilian casualties came out of Afghanistan throughout Barack Obama’s time in office. In 2014, Obama began removing troops currently deployed in the country. However, instead of this action by the president being one in a pursuit of peace and stability in the region, it only acted as an opportunity to drastically increase air warfare. Afghanistan had war rained upon them by U.S. bombardment, with the administration viciously dropping 1,337 weapons on Afghanistan in 2016. In total that year, the Obama administration dropped 26,171 bombs (drone or otherwise) across seven countries: Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Yemen, Somalia and Pakistan. The U.S., in cooperation with its allies including the Afghan government, killed 582 civilians on average annually from 2007 to 2016.
See “https://archive.ph/wK992#selection-1737.240-1761.53” for the full article.
Americans are propagandized to ignore U.S. imperialism; we assert ourselves as the world’s policeman. Ask yourself: Why can the U.S. murder in the Middle East or sink civilian ships from Venezuela with impunity? The murder of U.S. civilians is unacceptable but when we do the killing it’s always a “necessary evil”.
Thanks for the round up though, it’s always good to know :)
I was jokie. I know all that. The united states are illegitimate as far as I’m concerned.
Ah, I didn’t see that your comment was written sarcastically. Sorry about that.
You’re grand, as they say in ireland
I’ll just tell that to my brother in law who just got released from ICE custody. Like I know this picture is probably true for Gaza, but it isn’t for many of my neighbors and family.
Kids are still in Cages. Biden just kinda forgot to release them once he got elected. I bet you have already forgotten Trump I.
The Democrats have consistently expanded ICE
Wait until you find out Obama deported twice as many immigrants(could be just Mexicans, I can’t remember) as Trump did. Or when you find out Obama dropped more bombs on Muslim countries than Trump. Or that Hillary raised twice as much money from corporations in ‘16 than Trump (same with Harris in’ 24)
It is also true people benefited from Obama’s DACA program. This isn’t a simple trolley problem let alone a single track
It went over your head didn’t it. When he is taking about ice he is talking about erosion of law and norms. Ice has always been a thing but they were not like this.
But go on.
Always is a stretch. Since 2003 during the Patriot Act days.
Removed by mod
Like when Obama drone struck that 16 year old American kid, and when someone in his administration was asked about it, he said that he should’ve had a better father? Yes, he was the son of a known terrorist. But to be fair, Trumps first military raid as president killed his sister, an 8 year old American girl, which Obama refused that mission(maybe twice, don’t quote me on that). Or when Jim Carry had that drawing of a school bus full of children that were bombed and killed, and it was under Obama. Those terrorists?
Obama drone struck that 16 year old American kid, and when someone in his administration was asked about it, he said that he should’ve had a better father
Oh boy the irony
Really takes you back to the outrage when Trump said “We have to take out their families”
Ok then, what should people do? Easy to criticize, but hard to find answers.
Join PSL and DSA and do not vote until they follow through with demands, both sides continue genocide and war on a grand scale
This does nothing but help the GOP, who are openly bragging about installing a dictator.
This assumes the USA is a democracy at the federal level. Where votes by people matter.
Many states use election machines, owned by oligarchs, whose operations are a closed book and are not regulated. Coincidentally those states, both red and blue, fail tests approved by the United Nations to detect tampering of votes.
Those states make the other states, that actually pass the tests, irrelevant.
What makes democracy, in the USA, unable to curb the even the very gross problems today is not the people doing the cheating.
But it is the people who refuse to call the cheating out (by addressing the real issues), and more important the majority of citizens who absolutely do not see this as a problem. It’s only when this is addressed can the actual issues of a real democracy be looked at.
Even then, real reform is hard to do in a democracy. Especially one so large and out of control as the nation we see now. So any reform has to be not using the ballot box.
A boycott actually could help.
Organize your locality, get involved with local politics start a communal garden, do literally anything more than just vote
